chain of events

Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:


UPS are usually designed to come online within a couple of cycles.


I have never seen a UPS that takes more than a fraction of a cycle to
transition to backup mode.


We have UPS's in the tower and TRACON. They work only when properly
maintained. Ours are not and it's a 50/50 bet that the entire
tower/TRACON will reset when they don't work. If they don't work it's a
10-15 second deal while everything comes back on line. That's why we
always manually turn on the back up generators whenever there are
thunderstorms in the area.




In fact, units which are used in "mission
critical" applications are not the line interactive type as you seem
to be thinking about above, instead are dual online conversion. I
would assume that a UPS used for ILS equipment and radio
communications for ATC would be a mission critical design as opposed
to the less than reliable line interactive design.

They are not.

There are also "bridge" UPSes that store energy in flywheels and
ultracapacitors.

I'm no UPS or Power engineer, but isn't the flywheel bridge used to
"bridge" the time it takes for a generator to come online. I was not
aware that there are UPS's using this technology. While ultracaps do
store energy, they are typically only sized to maintain an output load
for a period of about 30 seconds in the flywheel bridge. This
application isn't really a UPS per se, though would be awesome to
prevent the failure Capt Doug speaks of. My specialty isn't UPS's,
rather telecom, so take it all with a grain of salt.

Reading Capt Dougs story makes one wonder about the reliability of the
"things" we rely on for our navigation, communications etc while
flying around. I am a new pilot and would be kinda bummed out if on
final at night and the runway lights went out. Though I probably
shouldn't be, I think I am dependent upon the runway edge lighting to
make a landing at night... Maybe I am wrong... but dang that would be
an eye opener for sure if those things went out on me while on short
final, or even worse, just seconds before touchdown.

Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

"KM" wrote:

Doug, come on dude.You posted some answers to a couple of technical
questions on Boeings that didnt make any sense.My guess is that you
hang out with pilots on layovers alot and pick their brains, and maybe
even read through some manuals.I get the same thing at my work, and
once I met a flight attendant who had 8000 hours.
Furthermore, this is the internet, and how many people here know you
personally?If you are who you say you are, I can respect that, but
just tell me where you are based and the initials of your chief pilot
and I will look it up and offer you an appology.
KM
PS how does an autopilot "mimic the ILS in smooth air"?????

I have not seen any useful information from you only sarcastic comments. Your posts are not even archived on google. Are you afraid of your own statements?

There are also "bridge" UPSes that store energy in flywheels and
ultracapacitors.

I'm no UPS or Power engineer, but isn't the flywheel bridge used to
"bridge" the time it takes for a generator to come online. I was not
aware that there are UPS's using this technology. While ultracaps do
store energy, they are typically only sized to maintain an output load
for a period of about 30 seconds in the flywheel bridge. This
application isn't really a UPS per se, though would be awesome to
prevent the failure Capt Doug speaks of. My specialty isn't UPS's,
rather telecom, so take it all with a grain of salt.

Reading Capt Dougs story makes one wonder about the reliability of the
"things" we rely on for our navigation, communications etc while
flying around. I am a new pilot and would be kinda bummed out if on
final at night and the runway lights went out. Though I probably
shouldn't be, I think I am dependent upon the runway edge lighting to
make a landing at night... Maybe I am wrong... but dang that would be
an eye opener for sure if those things went out on me while on short
final, or even worse, just seconds before touchdown.

Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

I don't know whether a lot of the original story was tongue-in-cheek, or
whether it just got-a-little-better with each retelling; but I really can
not believe the part about the nav-aids going off line.

Basically, the runway and taxiway lighting systems need a lot of power, so I
would not be able to categorically deny any assertion. There are a lot of
budgetary and philosophical considerations involved, so a compromise between
cost and downtime is plausible--maybe even probable.

However, the nav-aids (localizer, glideslope, and marker beacons) require
very little power at each location--probably less than a personal computer.
And a TVOR requires very little more; so, like several others, I am willing
to postulate that the story, as told, is false.

Peter
Just my $0.02

On Mar 9, 6:22 pm, "Capt.Doug" wrote:

Hmm... I don't recall you posting with this name for very long, and yet you
have so much to offer the group (sarcasm).

How much are you offering this group Doug.Marginaly accurate posts
about airliners?


Yes, I do, and yes, you are guessing.

See, I WAS right.

Hmmm... I've never seen respect shown in such a manner.

Hmmm..., how much respect do you expect when you go around pretending
to be something you are not.

Hmmm.... Give personal information to a suspected troll? I'm crazy, but
not stupid. You go first. If you aren't in CASS, please don't bother.

Suspected troll? Doug, I am not the one who sings his posts "Capt".Is
mentioning a city code personal information.I am not the one
misrepresenting myself.You are kind of being a jerk here, but I will
tell you what, I am based in SLC and I am the 3rd guy on the list
(alphabetically) with these initials.If you email me I will give you
my name and ALPA number.

Pay attention here- If the airplane is trimmed for flying the ILS, and the
autopilot reverts to heading and pitch mode, the airplane will continue a
course very close to the ILS while in calm air. Of course you knew this but
wanted to see if I knew it, right?.

You pay attention here Doug, you dont make a very good liar.

Bottom line is that I don't care to prove anything to you. I don't care what
you think. You can cajole, provoke, instigate, flame, and irritate others
here, but I don't care what you think. Have a good day.

Doug, Lighten up. No one is trying to provoke you.Some of your posts
do not cast the industry in a very favorable light (Like the post
about watching movies), and it is a little irritating when someone who
is masquerading as a airline pilot posts stupid stuff like this.I
would respectfully request that if you are going to continue these
kind of posts that you quit calling yourself "Captain" Doug.
D.

KMU

On Fri, 09 Mar 2007 19:52:39 -0800, Mike 'Flyin'8'
wrote:


There are also "bridge" UPSes that store energy in flywheels and
ultracapacitors.

I'm no UPS or Power engineer, but isn't the flywheel bridge used to
"bridge" the time it takes for a generator to come online. I was not
aware that there are UPS's using this technology. While ultracaps do
store energy, they are typically only sized to maintain an output load
for a period of about 30 seconds in the flywheel bridge. This
application isn't really a UPS per se, though would be awesome to
prevent the failure Capt Doug speaks of. My specialty isn't UPS's,
rather telecom, so take it all with a grain of salt.

Reading Capt Dougs story makes one wonder about the reliability of the
"things" we rely on for our navigation, communications etc while
flying around. I am a new pilot and would be kinda bummed out if on
final at night and the runway lights went out. Though I probably
shouldn't be, I think I am dependent upon the runway edge lighting to
make a landing at night... Maybe I am wrong... but dang that would be
an eye opener for sure if those things went out on me while on short
final, or even worse, just seconds before touchdown.


Check out Pentadyne.com and activepower.com for flywheels.

Don

KM wrote:
On Mar 9, 9:39 am, Dave S wrote:

KM wrote:


I dont know about the approach itself, but the power issue is very
believable. If the main transformer for the whole place let go, its VERY
likely that it takes 10 or more seconds for the generator to get up and
running. Also, if I understand right, the generators dont serve the
entire airport, just select facilities and one or two main runways.


Dave, you also have to understand that the ATC facilities are at two
separate locations.

I understand that perfectly. Tower in one place. VOR in another.
Localizer in a shack off the end of the runway. Glideslope in yet
another shack about 1000 feet beyond the threshhold off to the side.
These shacks and boxes may be hundreds or thousands of yards from each
other.

I also know that if the BIG transformer that steps down from the big
high tension lines lets go, as in.. the BIG one in the substation.. then
the whole grid downstream of that transformer drops offline. That can
include an airport.

I once was a volunteer fireman for about 10 years... in that time, we
had a big snake go slithering up equipment in a substation one night. I
guess the hum and warmth of the stuff was just tooo inviting to resist.
He completed a short circuit that took out power to thousands of homes,
caused a PCB oil fed fire and had the fire marshall's office initially
investigating it as a terrorist act until we found the charred skeleton
of the snake. (Pre 2001 but after 1994 - the first WTC). The transformer
bit is quite credible, and if you are ever near one when one lets go,
its an underwear changing event.

As for UPS and such.. I've seen UPS's on computers, and on some radio
gear, but nothing big enough to run an airport or hospital
stand-alone.. maybe there are enough little boxes in the shacks, but if
what NEWPS says is true, then I doubt it.

The local big city fire department, at one time, had a hardened concrete
2 story windowless dispatch center, with 2 sources of incoming power
on lines, PLUS a generator with over a week's worth of fuel, PLUS a bank
of batteries to run it all until the generator could kick over. That
struck me as robust...

But again.. something like this happens, with big iron yanking and
banking on the final approach course, after an explosion at an airport,
with a power loss.... and never heard a word about it except here.. hmmm..

Mike 'Flyin'8' wrote:

While ultracaps do
store energy, they are typically only sized to maintain an output load
for a period of about 30 seconds in the flywheel bridge. *This
application isn't really a UPS per se

Why not? As long as those 30 seconds suffice to e.g. get said generator
online, the system serves to maintin power in the event of a utility power
failure, making it an uninterruptible power supply.

Which part of UPS don't I get?

Anno.

KM writes:

You posted some answers to a couple of technical
questions on Boeings that didnt make any sense.

If giving a wrong answer makes someone a non-pilot, then I'm not sure that
_anyone_ on this newsgroup is a real pilot.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

KM writes:

No one is trying to provoke you.

Calling someone a liar is patent provocation, as are all other personal
attacks.

Some of your posts do not cast the industry in a very favorable
light (Like the post about watching movies), and it is a little
irritating when someone who is masquerading as a airline pilot
posts stupid stuff like this.

Translation: If someone displeases you, you try to discredit him.

I would respectfully request that if you are going to continue these
kind of posts that you quit calling yourself "Captain" Doug.

The beauty of USENET is that your requests, respectful or not, can simply be
ignored.

There are many types of captains, most of whom are not necessarily airline
pilots. And anyone can call himself captain, and he won't be wrong.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.