Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 16:06:02 -0600, RomeoMike
wrote:



Mxsmanic wrote:


I note from in-cockpit videos of aerobatic pilots that they keep their heads
level with the horizon, not level with the aircraft.

I guess that explains why they decapitate themselves during a roll.


That's why they have rounded canopies. It makes it easier to find
the head and snap it back on after the maneuver.

B A R R Y wrote:


That's why they have rounded canopies. It makes it easier to find
the head and snap it back on after the maneuver.

Yep, but I think Sporty's now carries a swivel to connect head and neck
because some of those maneuvers are more complex, and many a pilot has
lost his head.

Perhaps pilots would be less prone to disorientation if they kept their
heads
normal to the horizon, even in turns (for instrument flight, this would
mean
keeping one's head level with the horizon of the attitude indicator).


And then disorientation occurs.. because the mind cannot believe what the
eyes see and what the body feels.

I teach that the head is on a swivel.. keep the head and eyes moving.. ABCTs
of flying..
Airspeed, Bank, Coordination, Traffic (look for traffic, into the turn and
the other side too)

This is primary for glider students, I've found that students who try to sit
upright relative to earth and keep their "eyes on the level" have more turn
coordination issues. They cannot "feel the slip/skid".

In the words of the Jedi Master... "Use the Force Luke".. be one with the
aircraft.

BT

BT wrote:


In the words of the Jedi Master... "Use the Force Luke".. be one with the
aircraft.

BT


You are preaching to the choir, but MX is not in the choir. He's solo in
another auditorium.

RomeoMike wrote in
:



BT wrote:


In the words of the Jedi Master... "Use the Force Luke".. be one with
the aircraft.

BT


You are preaching to the choir, but MX is not in the choir. He's solo
in another auditorium.

Toilet, I think


bertie

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 19:26:05 +0200, Mxsmanic
wrote:

Bob Moore writes:

Mxsmanic wrote
When you make a coordinated turn in an aircraft, are you taught to let
your head tilt with the bank angle of the aircraft, or are you taught
to keep your head normal to the horizon?

Head and body should remain perpendicular to the floor of the
cockpit. This comes naturally if the turn is coordinated.

Interesting. When you learn to ride a motorcycle, you're taught to keep your
head normal to the horizon in turns ... because turning your head with the
bike as you lean into a turn results in disorientation.

Perhaps pilots would be less prone to disorientation if they kept their heads
normal to the horizon, even in turns (for instrument flight, this would mean
keeping one's head level with the horizon of the attitude indicator).

I note from in-cockpit videos of aerobatic pilots that they keep their heads
level with the horizon, not level with the aircraft.

Watch again and pay attention.
Here is a good example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NrJCkmDnr4

You'll see that in coordinated turns they keeep their heads with the
aircraft, not with the horizon. The hungaran pilot bends his neck a
lot, but not in coordinated turns.

- Tom

On Jun 10, 1:26 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Bob Moore writes:
Head and body should remain perpendicular to the floor of the
cockpit. This comes naturally if the turn is coordinated.

Interesting. When you learn to ride a motorcycle, you're taught to keep your
head normal to the horizon in turns ... because turning your head with the
bike as you lean into a turn results in disorientation.

Perhaps pilots would be less prone to disorientation if they kept their heads
normal to the horizon, even in turns (for instrument flight, this would mean
keeping one's head level with the horizon of the attitude indicator).

I note from in-cockpit videos of aerobatic pilots that they keep their heads
level with the horizon, not level with the aircraft.

Normally I avoid engaging in the normal name-calling and slander that
attends almost all of your posts, but today I cannot resist. I will,
however avoid the temptation for infantile popping off at you, and
just answer the question as well as a few observations, and a parable
from the history of science ...

I will note immediately, that you do seem the use the word "But" far
too often for someone who is asking for factual responses to specific
questions about pilots' actual experience; of their training, or post-
training flying. For example, quoting you:

"But you can look where you're going in both cases: with
your head level with
the horizon, and with your head level with the aircraft. "


"But" implies that you are interested more in entering into a
discussion or argument about what "ought" to be true, rather than a
discussion of what "is" true in the experience of the people / group
you are asking questions of.

I should not have to quote you back to you again, however you did ask
"Head orientation in turns--how is it taught for aviation?", and:

"When you make a coordinated turn in an aircraft, are you
taught to let your
head tilt with the bank angle of the aircraft, or are you
taught to keep your
head normal to the horizon?"

Your response immediately below indicates that you are more interested
in exploring your own theories on this subject, rather than the actual
experience of people while they were being taught:

"Interesting. When you learn to ride a motorcycle, you're
taught to keep your
head normal to the horizon in turns ... because turning your
head with the
bike as you lean into a turn results in disorientation."

Unfortunately, this seems to be your most common approach, a form of
the bait and switch, you ask for experiences then seek to discount
these experiences with your own theoretical structure of how things
"ought" to be.

Descartes did this too, even in the face of the overwhelming empirical
(and theoretical) power of Newtonian mechanics. Descartes kept harping
on about the "occult" nature of the force of gravity (on the basis
that it "ought" not be true because it involved believing in forces
that act at a distance without a mechanism or particles for the
transmission of the force). Descartes himself had an extremely non-
empirical theory that involved whirling "vortices" of particles in an
"ether" ... strange his reluctance to embrace a complex and powerful
mathematical system such as Newton's universal gravitation, from such
a good mathematician as Descartes was.

Newton said "yes ... I have no mechanism, but I don't care ... it
works ... and very well". Rather than evaluate whether real
observations showed that universal gravitation "is" a good description
of the world, Descartes kept insisting that it "ought" not be true.
The fact that Einstein later supplanted Newtonian mechanics is
irrelevant ... Descartes' approach was still wrong-headed and failed
in its own time, and did not lead anywhere later either, as it turned
out.

Descartes was an idealist (that is, the belief that truth should
somehow be deducible from just the power of thought, without any
reference to the world outside of one's head). Idealism used to be
called the "French disease" (so was syphillis) by the English speaking
world, and it seems as if you might have caught it (the idealist bug
that is). Remember "is" and "ought" are very different things.

Back to your original question ... I will supply an answer of what
"is" ... I was (as you asked) taught during my ab initio flight
training to keep my head and body in a straight line, and not bend at
the neck, neither away from nor toward the direction of the turn.
Swiveling the head and/or moving the eyes to watch the patch of sky
you were heading toward is taught (of course). Swiveling the head in
the other direction is also taught to look for possibly converging A/
C. However, one is taught to NOT bend your neck during turns. The
argument is made that doing this makes you more prone to
disorientation, sloppy flying, and a phenomenon called "the leans"
after prolonged turns or during instrument flying.

And before you start ... spare us the inevitable "But, ...". Don't
argue with me about whether this "ought" to be true ... you asked "how
is?" and I just answered your question, from my actual experience of
private pilot flight training.

J

PPL-A (Canada) writes:

Back to your original question ... I will supply an answer of what
"is" ... I was (as you asked) taught during my ab initio flight
training to keep my head and body in a straight line, and not bend at
the neck, neither away from nor toward the direction of the turn.
Swiveling the head and/or moving the eyes to watch the patch of sky
you were heading toward is taught (of course). Swiveling the head in
the other direction is also taught to look for possibly converging A/
C. However, one is taught to NOT bend your neck during turns. The
argument is made that doing this makes you more prone to
disorientation, sloppy flying, and a phenomenon called "the leans"
after prolonged turns or during instrument flying.

And is this argument supported by scientific data, or simply folk wisdom? Why
would it be the recommended behavior for identical turns on a motorcycle, but
not for flying? Who's right, and why?

On Jun 11, 1:03 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
PPL-A (Canada) writes:
Back to your original question ... I will supply an answer of what
"is" ... I was (as you asked) taught during my ab initio flight
training to keep my head and body in a straight line, and not bend at
the neck, neither away from nor toward the direction of the turn.
Swiveling the head and/or moving the eyes to watch the patch of sky
you were heading toward is taught (of course). Swiveling the head in
the other direction is also taught to look for possibly converging A/
C. However, one is taught to NOT bend your neck during turns. The
argument is made that doing this makes you more prone to
disorientation, sloppy flying, and a phenomenon called "the leans"
after prolonged turns or during instrument flying.

And is this argument supported by scientific data, or simply folk wisdom? Why
would it be the recommended behavior for identical turns on a motorcycle, but
not for flying? Who's right, and why?

Now now ... all you've done is substituted "And" for "But"! So I
guess I should have said "No 'if's', 'ands', 'ors', 'buts' or
'maybes'...". You asked how it's taught ... and that's how it's
taught ... give your head a shake and listen.

Why don't you write to Transport Canada and ask them for all of the
"scientific data" you seek? Every couple of months this agency
publishes a newsletter outlining the science (physics, and human
flight physiology for instance) behind a number of the basic
principles taught during flight training, and what happens when one is
forgetful, ill-trained, or foolish and/or argumentative enough to
disregard what you have been taught. Where I was trained you learn it
this way (from the "Flight Training Manual" - "Exercise Nine -
Turns"), or you don't fly. And from experience I can truly say that
doing it the other way does, after a time ranging from many seconds to
a minute or two, even at a gentle bank angle, lead to a very
uncomfortable feeling that my instructor told me is called "the
leans". You don't want to fly with the leans.

Also, I am not conceding that there is anything "identical" about
motorcycles and flying. I can think of so many things about the two
that are different it is not even worth comparing them any more
(although it did help a little bit around 1900 to compare the two, but
I wouldn't want to try to fly the Wright Flyer!). Nor is this a
motorcycle newsgroup. Why don't you trot out some real mathematical
physics right here and now and prove to all of us YOUR claim that they
are identical? Until then your comparison is a specious red herring.
Perhaps you are wrong, and BOTH claims can be correct, huh? This is
possible if we disregard your premise that they are identical.

Again ... the answer remains the same ... neck straight ... not bent.
It's safer this way, has been studied carefully (see above). The
onus, or burden of proof, to make any claims to the contrary, lies
entirely with you.

So get to it ... or enough already ...

J.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

PPL-A (Canada) writes:

Back to your original question ... I will supply an answer of what
"is" ... I was (as you asked) taught during my ab initio flight
training to keep my head and body in a straight line, and not bend at
the neck, neither away from nor toward the direction of the turn.
Swiveling the head and/or moving the eyes to watch the patch of sky
you were heading toward is taught (of course). Swiveling the head in
the other direction is also taught to look for possibly converging A/
C. However, one is taught to NOT bend your neck during turns. The
argument is made that doing this makes you more prone to
disorientation, sloppy flying, and a phenomenon called "the leans"
after prolonged turns or during instrument flying.

And is this argument supported by scientific data, or simply folk
wisdom? Why would it be the recommended behavior for identical turns
on a motorcycle, but not for flying? Who's right, and why?

I'm right because I do both well.


Bertie