VOR approach SMO

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!

Karl



"pgbnh" wrote in message
news
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not
1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.
(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl.
"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"karl gruber" wrote:

I see no problem with the weather 800/3 as you point out. Inside BEVEY
drive
down to 680 outside CULVE, and have 3 miles to descend 505 feet. Any jet
will do that all day long.

So you'd drop below 1120 *outside* CULVE? Even if you were just cutting
things a little fine, the 2.4 miles from CULVE is from the *far end* of
the runway you're landing on... and if you were descending below 1120
just inside BEVEY in IMC, you might be in more trouble than you'd like.

Hamish

On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not
1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.
(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl

Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross
CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight?
Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My
reading of the plate is:

Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you
can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you
get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed.

Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the
airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing
restriction?

You can cross CULVE at 680 because the chart says "CULVE DME/RADAR MINIMA*
680-1"
You can descend to 680 past BEVEY. Look at the chart...........that's how
it's read.

Karl


"Doug Semler" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is
not
1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.
(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At
which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl

Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross
CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight?
Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My
reading of the plate is:

Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you
can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you
get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed.

Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the
airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing
restriction?

Note this is a VOR or GPS approach. Sorry if I just assumed that there would
be on-board EITHER a DME or an IFR certified GPS that would provide the
distance-measuring requirements of the DME/Radar minima. Pretty good chance
the jet in question had both. And maybe you understand this, but youir
reference to Radar implies that maybe you do not. The 'Radar' reference is
NOT referring to whether the plane is radar equipped, but rather whether
there is radar coverage from the ground. Which in fact should allow an
aircraft WITHOUT DME to descend to 680 (if receiving advisories from the
tower/approach)
"Doug Semler" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jul 23, 5:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is
not
1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.
(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At
which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl

Please, tell me how you read the plate in a way that you can cross
CULVE below 1120 when you don't have the airport in sight?
Note I am not an IA pilot, but I really want to understand this. My
reading of the plate is:

Cross CULVE at or above 1120. If you are DME equipped and radar, you
can then descend to 680. Otherwise you gotta remain at 1120. If you
get to the VOR before seeing the airport, you execute missed.

Now if the conditions are 800 overcast 3mi, how can you see the
airport before hitting CULVE unless you are below the crossing
restriction?

On Jul 23, 2:07 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not
1120 but 680.

Generally people who's method of explaining things starts by insulting
them, telling them that they don't know what they are doing, and then
explaining that he's much smarter than everyone else have a more
difficult time explaining things. Sadly, the one poster you referenced
uses this has his methodology. Let's all pray that he's not a CFI.

-Robert

pgbnh wrote:

I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not
1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.
(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????) At which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl.
"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

The MDA is 1120 unless you have DME. If you have DME then the MDA is
680 once you pass CULVE. You cannot descend below 1120 prior to CULVE
even if you see the runway unless you either cancel, get a contact
approach, or a visual approach.

Having said that, when the weather is good, folks who know the airport
descend out of 1120 on the 4 degree PAPI. But, sometimes it is 600 and
1 around there.

OK, now I admit to being confused.

I read the chart as 'the MDA is 1120 unless equipped with dme or receiving
radar advisories so that CULVE can be indentified, in which case the MDA is
680.' The asterisk next to the 1120 is, I believe, indicating that the MDA
is 1120 unless (see the other half of the asterisk below) DME or Radar
equipped, inwhich case it is 680. With DME I do not see a requirement to
stay at 1120 to CULVE and THEN descend to 680. Rather, I believe it says I
can descend to 680 (with DME) once I pass BEVEY.

I also do not agree with the statement "You cannot descend below 1120 prior
to CULVE
even if you see the runway unless you either cancel, get a contact
approach, or a visual approach.". 91.175 clearly states that I can descend
below MDA when I have the runway environment (lightts, etc) in sight. No
restrictions on when I can begin a descent below MDA. Were there a VDP,
different situation, but no VDP on this approach.

So I stand by what I said earlier. I can be at 680 BEFORE CULVE, AND, if I
have the runway environment, I can be below 680 even earlier.

I also reserve the right to be wrong

"B" wrote in message ...
pgbnh wrote:

I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is
not 1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should
have been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of
Culve. (Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????)
At which point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land
on the numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl.
"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

The MDA is 1120 unless you have DME. If you have DME then the MDA is 680
once you pass CULVE. You cannot descend below 1120 prior to CULVE even if
you see the runway unless you either cancel, get a contact approach, or a
visual approach.

Having said that, when the weather is good, folks who know the airport
descend out of 1120 on the 4 degree PAPI. But, sometimes it is 600 and 1
around there.

"
The MDA is 1120 unless you have DME. If you have DME then the MDA is 680
once you pass CULVE. You cannot descend below 1120 prior to CULVE even if
you see the runway unless you either cancel, get a contact approach, or a
visual approach.

If you have DME, IFRGPS, or ATC Radar, you can descend to 680 past
BEVEY............that is simply what that chart reads.

Karl

In article ,
"pgbnh" wrote:

I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is not
1120 but 680.

Assuming radar or DME, yes.

If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should have
been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of Culve.

But you can't go below 1120 until CULVE unless you're on the visual. The
chart's not particularly ambiguous about this...

(Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????)

You generally have to be below the ceiling before the runway's in
sight... At 1120, with 800/3, you're presumably still in the stratus.

At which
point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land on the
numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl.

Having done the approach for real, I didn't find the descents
particularly challenging, but they do require a bit of forethought,
that's for sure. The hardest part was being dumped inside DARTS at
6,000'....

Hamish

"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"karl gruber" wrote:

I see no problem with the weather 800/3 as you point out. Inside BEVEY
drive
down to 680 outside CULVE, and have 3 miles to descend 505 feet. Any jet
will do that all day long.

So you'd drop below 1120 *outside* CULVE? Even if you were just cutting
things a little fine, the 2.4 miles from CULVE is from the *far end* of
the runway you're landing on... and if you were descending below 1120
just inside BEVEY in IMC, you might be in more trouble than you'd like.

Hamish

Once inside BEVEY you're good for 680. There is no glideslope and it's "Dive
and Drive." That's why the pros make it in with no trouble, they can read
charts.

Karl

Karl
"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"karl gruber" wrote:

I see no problem with the weather 800/3 as you point out. Inside BEVEY
drive
down to 680 outside CULVE, and have 3 miles to descend 505 feet. Any jet
will do that all day long.

So you'd drop below 1120 *outside* CULVE? Even if you were just cutting
things a little fine, the 2.4 miles from CULVE is from the *far end* of
the runway you're landing on... and if you were descending below 1120
just inside BEVEY in IMC, you might be in more trouble than you'd like.

Hamish