THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON

Subject: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 9/7/03 2:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time

Nope. Safe Salvo was not an option. We didn't have a "safe" switch at all.
We
salvoed over the PO Valley through the clouds and hit Panzers engaged in
battle. We all got battle stars for the Po Valley for that one. It was
the
only
"easy" battle start I ever won. I think our air generals worried about
too
many
safe releases over enemy targets so they just removed that option.


Arthur Kramer

Ok...makes sense, thanks...
--

-Gord.


Sounds like a serious problem on takeoff could result in some pretty
nasty damage close to home - must have happened a few times?

Dave



Go to my website and read "Death on the Runway"


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer



In fact they were so concerned about "safe" releases that after every mission
we had to turn in an arming wire for each bomb we took off with. 8 500
pounders? We had better come home with 8 arming wires....OR ELSE ! Strike
photos were examined for holes which often meant unexploded bombs


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

(ArtKramr) wrote:


In fact they were so concerned about "safe" releases that after every mission
we had to turn in an arming wire for each bomb we took off with. 8 500
pounders? We had better come home with 8 arming wires....OR ELSE ! Strike
photos were examined for holes which often meant unexploded bombs


Arthur Kramer

'Or else' what Art?...certainly not to be argumentative here at
all but there's some questions in my mind. You say that there's
no way to drop with your bombs on safe because the 'powers that
be' were worried that bombs might get dropped unarmed so removed
the possibility. So what's this about 'coming home with less than
8 arming wires'?, how could you do that?.

Another question, Dave Holford asked about jettisoning your load
'live' in friendly territory if you had a problem shortly after
T.O. and you quoted a story which has no relation to that
problem.

Please understand that I'm NOT trying to trick you or anything
but having an analytical mind these things bother me...can you
help?.
--

-Gord.

I find it reprehensible that Art can dismiss the efforts and lives of
men who spent more weeks in combat than he did hours, just because they
did not wear wings, with thoughtless smart-arse comments.

I haven't seen Art dismiss ground combat troops. The closest I can recall was a
while back when he pointed out that the 8th AF bomber crews had a lower
survival rate in 1942 than the cround combat forces ever did.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Subject: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/7/03 5:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

I haven't seen Art dismiss ground combat troops. The closest I can recall was
a
while back when he pointed out that the 8th AF bomber crews had a lower
survival rate in 1942 than the cround combat forces ever did.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired


That was true all through the war The AAC had the hiighest loss rate of any US
service. If you wanted to live, join the infantry. If you wanted to join the
AAC and live, be a cook.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Hi Dan

I know exactly where you are coming from. I had someone killed two feet
away from me and I survived. He was only 21 and three months short of
getting married. If one has never experienced something like this, then
they can never understand the pain and anger we live with and our own
peculiar ways of dealing with it.

Cheers...Chris

Dave Holford wrote:

ArtKramr wrote:

did YOU do in the war? Robbie flew 55
missions.
How many did you fly?

I see your point Art, those lives were just ordinary lives, not air crew.

He did 55. How many did you fly?

Arthur Kramer

I find it reprehensible that Art can dismiss the efforts and lives of
men who spent more weeks in combat than he did hours, just because they
did not wear wings, with thoughtless smart-arse comments.

No one doubts that his time in combat was stressful and terrifying,...

...as well as *brave*.

...and may even have had some impact on the outcome of the European war; but he
did get to eat decent meals, at a table in comfort, and to sleep in a
safe bed every night.

His recollections of history are interesting contributions, but his
off-hand dismissal of everyone who was not in air combat is becoming
tiresome.

Emphatically agreed.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
From: (B2431)
Date: 9/7/03 5:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

I haven't seen Art dismiss ground combat troops. The closest I can recall was
a while back when he pointed out that the 8th AF bomber crews had a lower
survival rate in 1942 than the cround combat forces ever did.

That was true all through the war The AAC had the hiighest loss rate of any US
service. If you wanted to live, join the infantry. If you wanted to join the
AAC and live, be a cook.

...or a targeteer, or an armorer or a crew-chief or any number of
other indispensible specialties without whom you never would have
gotten bombs anywhere near a target.

You're being simply despicable, Art.


Billy

http://www.two--four.net/weblog.php

(ArtKramr) wrote:


'Or else' what Art?...certainly not to be argumentative here at
all but there's some questions in my mind. You say that there's
no way to drop with your bombs on safe because the 'powers that
be' were worried that bombs might get dropped unarmed so removed
the possibility. So what's this about 'coming home with less than
8 arming wires'?, how could you do that?.

Simple. If the arming wires were not firmly and properly installed they could
pull loose and go out with the bombs.. And since it is the bombardier who
inspects and approves the bomb and arming wire installation, he is called on
the carpet. And that is not a pretty picture.


....if you say so...they sure didn't seem to trust you guys too
well did they?...

Another question, Dave Holford asked about jettisoning your load
'live' in friendly territory if you had a problem shortly after
T.O. and you quoted a story which has no relation to that
problem.


Your story had no relation to his question because there was no
opportunity or reason (yet) for him to jettison his
bombload...your answer was inappropriate to the question. Right?.


Dumb question.

Not at all Art, It's a very reasonable question...why do you call
it dumb?...

What do you think the answer is? Take a guess and you will
probably be right. Hint: A B-26 with a highly trained crew is a valuable
military asset never to be needlessly thrown away.


This reasoning certainly isn't clear to me Art...

....and, the answer can only be that the 'powers that be'
considered that the advantage of having a 'no safe drop'
outweighed the danger that it posed in case of a required
jettison in friendly territory.

I know for a fact that Canadian Bombers (in peacetime at least)
DO have provision for jettisoning (or dropping in any mode for
that matter) without arming the bomb bay load. (the reason that I
specify Canadian is because I'm not sure about other nation's
policies) I'd be quite surprised if any other nation was
different.

Was that policy standard throughout US Bomber Command?.


Please understand that I'm NOT trying to trick you or anything
but having an analytical mind these things bother me...can you
help?.

Lord knows I try. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

--

-Gord.

Jeeze Tarver,

Get a grip. AA didn't actually TARGET the bridge, it just happened to
be there when he jettisoned. At low altitude, with the salvo decision
taken as a forced snap-judgement, there might not be a chance to look
for a "safe" place to drop. I think the other part of the Glen Miller
story was that his AC was transiting a pre-designated salvo area.

Stephen Ambrose tells a similar story of McGovern salvoing from his
B-24. I think they had one hanger and the the final kick shove, or
manipulation that popped the shackle open placed the bomb smack ontop of
an austrian farm house. He was sick. Long after the war, he finally
met the owner of said house. apparantly they hear the Lib coming (B-24s
were not apparantly sneeky) and dove for the root celler some distance
from the house. House went BOOOOOMMM! McGovern said hed DID see a
pilot deliberatly salvo into a civilian area. Some poople are born
jerks.

--
Dana Miller

Subject: THE DAY THE 344TH STOPPED PATTON
From: Dana Miller
Date: 9/7/03 7:47 PM Pacific

Get a grip. AA didn't actually TARGET the bridge, it just happened to
be there when he jettisoned. At low altitude, with the salvo decision
taken as a forced snap-judgement, there might not be a chance to look
for a "safe" place to drop.

Let tell you how a hung up bomb is "kicked out". The Bombardier climbs back
into the bomb bay. A hung up bomb can become armed if the fuse end is what is
dangling and the arming wire has pulled out. The entire plane and crew are one
small move away from death under these circumstances. The bombardier is now in
the bombay with bombay doors open and a 180 mph relative wind beating on him..
He reaches back with his left hand and grips the bomb axe mounted on the bomb
bay wall, He pulls it loose and engages the end of the axe into the slot in the
A-2 shackle. Now he twists hard. If all goes well the shackle will now spring
open and the bomb will fall free. The bomb is armed of course since the arrming
wire has already piulled out and the arming vanes have been spinning at high
speed in the relative wind for some time. The bombardier can't look down to see
what is below. In fact he has no vision other then the bomb. His first concern
is to get the bomb out and save the plane and the crew. For an actual account
of one such actual occurance, go to my website and read, "After 58 years this
still burns my ass".


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer