P-51's, Aces: A Special Gathering

Big John wrote:

Marc

Your right. Bob has to be a troll and should be plonked. Why he posted
to Soaring I have no idea

It's hard to convince an idiot so I'm gone.

(P-40, P-51, P-80A & B with small engine like Bong was flying but
better bird than me-262)


Right on, Big John!

As far as "Bob" is concerned, though, I regret--and apologize
for--cross-posting a forwarded message concerning the P-51's/Aces
get-together to both r.a.soaring and r.a.military. It seems, along with
the sports thread for which I am NOT responsible, to have degenerated
here on r.a.s. much more quickly than most. I did not allow for it
attracting the attention of Rob, who is notorious on r.a.m, and thus
causing cross-pollution of r.a.s.

On the other hand, soaring people are apparently way too highly evolved
intellectually for anything so mundane and simple-minded as either
professional sports or flying fighters. As always, those that can, do;
those that can't, bitch about those who can. Why sure, Ted Williams and
Bob Feller were just good ol'boys who couldn't make it any other way.
And we wonder why the US doesn't breed many world champions these days.

In the future my expectations for the quality of r.a.s. dialog will be
more closely geared to the requirements of "those who can't," and to an
enhanced assessment of the limited potential of r.a.s. to deal in a
mature fashion with subjects indirectly related to the nominal News
Group topic.



Jack

On Aug 22, 1:14?am, Rob Arndt wrote:
Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

Ponder this--those men who meet in Columbus may hold their heads high,
knowing they fought and won a war to free the world from a murderous
system of enslavement, while your Experten know they fought for the
wrong cause and the world is glad that they lost--and that their
grandchildren are ashamed of them.

On Aug 22, 4:59?pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 22, 1:14?am, Rob Arndt wrote:

Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

Ponder this--those men who meet in Columbus may hold their heads high,
knowing they fought and won a war to free the world from a murderous
system of enslavement, while your Experten know they fought for the
wrong cause and the world is glad that they lost--and that their
grandchildren are ashamed of them.

Number one they didn't win it alone in the world and certainly not
with the P-51 Mustang alone. They can believe whatever they want for
why they fought as Americans but it was about capitalism and big
business, as usual in the western world. What is true democracy linked
with? Freedom? Wrong- money, wealth, capitalism. the US fought b/c
whether Germany won or lost, the US had assets there and wanted to
keep doing business.

To their credit, however, I concede that the P-51 aces killed 2,097
German a/c and had 313 aces with 5 -23.83 kills.

I won't bring up the Me Bf 109s kills or aces made b/c I don't want
you to cry.

Rob

p.s. Germany survived, reunified, and lives to fight another day. So,
they spent 10 yrs in misery... in the long run they got off light.

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 11:28:51 -0700, Rob Arndt wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:11?pm, J a c k wrote:
------------ fwd ------------

Few aircraft are as legendary as the P-51. The aircraft and the
pilots who flew them during WWII are disappearing.

"Legendary"? Ever hear of the Spitfire and Me Bf 109 plus Fw-190 that
preceded it?

Sheesh, Rob. He did say "*Few* aircraft are as legendary as
the P-51," not "The P-51 is the absolute bestest aircraft ever,
way way better than those flaming deathtraps the Germans
sacrificed their pilots in."

What should he have said to make you happy?

Something like "Few aircraft are as legendary as the P-51,
however this statement is not intended to exclude or disparage
any other legendary aircraft, including but not limited to the
Spitfire, Me-109, and Fw-190," maybe?


ljd

On Aug 20, 9:11 pm, J a c k wrote:
------------ fwd ------------

Few aircraft are as legendary as the P-51. The aircraft and the
pilots who flew them during WWII are disappearing.

This coming weekend, there will be a very special gathering in
Columbus, Ohio. They expect 120 P-51s to attend along with many
of the 80 or so remaining WWII Aces.

See this link for details:http://www.gml2007.com/index.asp

=========== end fwd ===========




I knew a guy who flew P-51s. He also had time on the P-61, P-38, and
was checked out on several other aircraft in the Pacific Theatre.

He said the one plane he never got to fly but really wanted too was
the Spitfire Mk XXI.

He got into a mock dogfight with one over the Pacific in his P-51 and
immediately became a fan of the Spit.

On Aug 21, 6:40 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
On Aug 21, 5:21?pm, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
wrote:





Dan wrote:
Rob Arndt wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:11?pm, J a c k wrote:
------------ fwd ------------

Few aircraft are as legendary as the P-51. The aircraft and the
pilots who flew them during WWII are disappearing.

"Legendary"? Ever hear of the Spitfire and Me Bf 109 plus Fw-190 that
preceded it?

He said "few" not "no," didn't he? Stop being so sensitive.

Well, aside from the Spitfire, those others are for losers. Dems de facks.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made. It lived on beyond its Third Reich
1935-45 timeframe too.



It was the ONLY fighter Germany had for a good part of the war. It
stands to reason it would rack up a lot of kills.

What would the Allied record look like if they only had Spits?

It would show the Spit as the greatest killing aircraft of the war.



Mort, you are a loser.

Rob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Aug 21, 7:12 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.

However did they lose the war?

It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.

Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?

So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?

The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.

**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.

Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.

Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...

Ponder that Tommy-boy.

Rob




The P-51 is just more US BULL****.

On Aug 21, 11:14 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:
On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:





On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.

However did they lose the war?

It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.

Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?

So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?

The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.

**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.

Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.

Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...

Ponder that Tommy-boy.

Rob

And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!


Hartmann for the most part was fighting inferior aircraft and the Red
Baron had an entire squadron protecting HIM while he did his hunting.






40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Aug 22, 5:59 pm, tomcervo wrote:
On Aug 22, 1:14?am, Rob Arndt wrote:

Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

Ponder this--those men who meet in Columbus may hold their heads high,
knowing they fought and won a war to free the world from a murderous
system of enslavement, while your Experten know they fought for the
wrong cause and the world is glad that they lost--and that their
grandchildren are ashamed of them.


LOL!!


They fought the FORD MOTOR CO./IBM/UNION BANK's created fascist state.

On Aug 28, 12:09?pm, wrote:
On Aug 21, 11:14 pm, Rob Arndt wrote:





On Aug 21, 9:20?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 9:12?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

On Aug 21, 5:48?pm, tomcervo wrote:

On Aug 21, 8:40?pm, Rob Arndt wrote:

The facts are that the Me Bf 109 is the gretest killing a/c in history
with the most kills and aces made.

However did they lose the war?

It lived on beyond its Third Reich 1935-45 timeframe too.

Nearly losing the war for the Israelis. Thank God for the Spitfire,
eh?

So what Tom? Is that all you got? What excuse does the unbombed
continental US Arsenal of Democracy have for not producing all better
a/c that should have surpassed the Me Bf 109, the German jets, and all
their advanced designs that the Allies used postwar in windtunnel
data, prototypes, and some operational a/c?

The US best ace, Richard Bong, flew a Lightning in the PTO and was
killed by a XP-80. Where are all your P-51 Mustang aces to compare
with the German Experten on lethal 109s? They weren't ****- they only
held air superiority in numbers. Hell, even the primitive Russians
kicked the US aces asses with more kills in inferior a/c.

**** the P-51... it wasn't even **** until the redesigned D-Model
anyway and the Me Bf 109Gs and Ks were not obsolete in 1945... just
outnumbered 11-to-1 in the air.

Hartmann, the ace of aces, said that the Mustang was nothing special.
I concur wholeheartedly.

Even Italians and Romanians shot down Mustangs...

Ponder that Tommy-boy.

Rob

And yet they lost the war. Ponder that.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ponder this Tom- NO USAF OR ANY OTHER NATIONAL AF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT
HARTMANN'S SCORE OR THE SCORES OF MANY GERMAN ACES FROM THE 100 MARK
UP. I DOUBT ANY USAF PILOT WILL EVER BEAT THE RED KNIGHT'S SCORE OF 80
FROM WW 1. THEY CERTAINLY DID NOT IN WW2 OR ANY WAR THEREAFTER!

Hartmann for the most part was fighting inferior aircraft and the Red
Baron had an entire squadron protecting HIM while he did his hunting.





40 is a pathetic number in terms of German ace scores.

Rob - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Hartmann's strategy was a simplistic one- get on your enemy's six
position and stay there, blasting away until the a/c is destroyed.
Hartmann did this to perfection and many times was struck by debris of
the enemy a/c since he was firing at almost point-blank range.

This started with the heavily armored Il-2s. Aiming for the vunerable
oil cooler meant you had to have great marksmanship and also be able
to hit at close range. Hartmann developed the close range strategy
from this and also his 'Last Ditch" maneuver that saved his life on
many occasions:

"As the enemy fighter approached, Hartmann used rudder to point his
fighter in a slightly different direction from the way it was going,
to mislead the attacker into misjudging the amount of deflection
required. When his opponent opened fire, Hartmann slammed the stick
into the far corner of the cockpit, putting his Messerschmitt into the
first half of an outside oblique loop."

- Luftwaffe Fighter Aces, Mike Spick

He also struck fear into the hearts of the entire VVS and USSR. He was
so feared that a price was put on his head. Even so, most VVS fighter
pilots fled when the saw his black tulip painted on his cowling or
heard his call sign "Karaya One". To them he was the "Black Devil".

When Hartmann ran into P-51s over Rumania he shot down 7 of them and
commented in his book that it was "nothing special".

He flew the Me Bf 109G.

So talk all the **** you want about the ace of aces with 352 kills and
WWI's Red Knight that had 80 kills.

No US fighter pilot or ANY combat pilot has reached those scores yet
and we are coming up to almost 100 years of aerial combat.

Rob

p.s. Even in another world war, which is certain to come, I don't
think the US will come anywhere near the German scores. I had a
braggart US naval aviator come to where I worked in the 1990s and
quickly put him to shame by asking him how good he thought he really
was. He replied, 'best in the world". I said "come back when you have
beaten the Red Knight's or Hartmann's scores... hmm, guess I'll never
see you again". He got all red faced and angry, and left. I was
waiting for that asshole to say something else. An asshole just like
you.