Does VFR Operation Require A High Level Of Language Proficiency?

On Oct 9, 2:34 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:

It's legal and safe if done correctly (at small airports). It may not be as
flexible or prudent as having a radio, but it's allowed and it isn't careless
or reckless.

I think there is an upgrade available from Microsoft where you can
have full ATC.

-Robert

Roy Smith writes:

On the other hand, airline pilots the world over manage to get by with only
a limited command of English, and the do it in the most hectic airspace you
can imagine.

That isn't entirely true. Often they are simply lucky, and the guesses made
by both pilot and controller alike, due to inadequate English skills on the
part of one part of the other, just happen to be correct.

The secret is that ATC communications use a limited
vocabulary of words and phrases (listed in the pilot-controller glossary).

The "secret" is that habit makes it easier to make a lucky guess.
Unfortunately gambling isn't entirely reliable, by definition.

In many ways, flying an airliner into JFK during the afternoon rush is an
easier communication situation than doing pattern work at East Podunk.

Which ways?

Robert M. Gary wrote:


I fly antique aircraft but am not so cheap as to not be able to afford
a couple hundred dollars for a portable radio. This isn't the 1920's
you know.

I'm not sure which one's you're flying, but the unshielded ignition systems
in many of the ones I've flown made my handheld radio just about useless. It
has nothing to do with being cheap.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

On Oct 11, 8:09 pm, Roy Smith wrote:

On the other hand, airline pilots the world over manage to get by with only
a limited command of English, and the do it in the most hectic airspace you
can imagine. The secret is that ATC communications use a limited
vocabulary of words and phrases (listed in the pilot-controller glossary).

They may not be as successful as you think. This has become a
political issue lately.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob7mc8gIyrE

-Robert

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
ups.com:

On Oct 9, 12:00 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote
innews




On Tue, 09 Oct 2007 18:10:09 -0000, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote in
.com:

On Oct 9, 4:41 am, Larry Dighera wrote:
Does VFR Operation Require A High Level Of Language Proficiency?
It looks like some in Europe would think it might:

IAOPA WINS LANGUAGE REPRIEVE
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archive...974-full.html#
1963
25)
The International Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association has
successfully lobbied the International Civil Aviation
Organization
(ICAO) to delay by three years implementation of onerous language
proficiency rules it says would severely limit VFR flight in
much of Europe. Under the ICAO proposal, all pilots would
require to demonstrate a high level of proficiency in either
English or the language of the country in which they are
flying. In an interview with AVweb at AOPA Expo in Hartford,
IAOPA General Secretary John Sheehan said the rule makes
sense for IFR operations but not for recreational flyers.
"For VFR people it doesn't make any sense," Sheehan said. "I
don't think [VFR] requires a high level of [language]
proficiency."

Given the US's provision for NORDO VFR operations, that has
probably been in the regulations since their inception, one can
only conclude that VFR operation doesn't even require any
communication at all.

Most pilots would consider NORDO to be an emergency operation.

ATC controller, Mr. McNicoll does it all the time, as does Mr.
Ford. I doubt they would concur.

All public use airports need communication.

At controlled fields, light signals are quite effective for
communications, and they require no language ability.

Flying into an airport (even a very small one) without talking
could certainly be considered careless or reckless.

For some folks, flight of any kind might qualify as careless and
reckless, but the fact is, that the CFRs permit aircraft without
electrical systems (and hence radios) to operate at public use
airports, and it routinely occurs.

I haven't the time right now to research the NTSB database, but it
would be enlightening to know how the percentage of NORADO flights
that result in being the cause of or contribute to incidents and
accidents.

Don't get me wrong. If I were flying an aircraft certified without
an electrical system, you can bet I'd have a handheld radio. But
that's just me. I'm a cautious sort; I'd have a backup handheld
too.

If you're that reliant on ATC do you carry matches so you can set
your seats on fire for smoke signals?

That's got to be the most sophomoric logic fallacy I've ever heard.


Um, yeah, that was obviously an attempt at logic.
IIRC my philosophy correctly, the Shophists were big on just that sort
of reasoning.






Bertie

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

Roy Smith writes:

On the other hand, airline pilots the world over manage to get by
with only a limited command of English, and the do it in the most
hectic airspace you can imagine.

That isn't entirely true. Often they are simply lucky, and the
guesses made by both pilot and controller alike, due to inadequate
English skills on the part of one part of the other, just happen to be
correct.

Bullshti.

You have no idea what you;re talking about.


Not surprising since oyu don't fly.


Bertie

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
ups.com:

On Oct 12, 7:15 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote
groups.com:





On Oct 11, 9:18 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
news:1192125688.565381.284690@ 19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:

On Oct 9, 11:15 am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

I have flown thousands of hours of no radio ops. The place I
did this most at has had one midair over the years.

For this you are proud? Wow baby! I've flown a lot of radioless
aircraft but damn, a JRC isn't that expensive and I keep on in
my bag at all times.

WTF is a JRC?

Its an inexpensive hand-held radio. One I've used in the Champ,
Chief, and J-3. Its hard to understand why anyone would fly around
in a non- radio airplane w/o putting out a few bucks for a radio.

Because they didn't exist when I did it?

Are you asking me? I wasn't around during the days of the Wright
brothers how would I know?
My assumption is that the OP is not asking if it was safe to fly
without radios in 1910, I believe he was asking about today.


So what?


It's stil safe to fly without radios.

Millions of flights are made every year without them.
In fact, the field I mentioned is extremely busy to this day and still
most ops ae no -rad. the office doesn't have even hace a fixed set. They
did for a while in the .70,s, but they threw it out.


BTW this is no cowboy airport... In my day two chief pilots for Pan Am
operaed out of it as did several of the most famous airshow and
competiton aerobatic and glider pilots in the country...


I'm not anti radio, BTW, I used one several times tonight...

I jsut think people are overly reliant on ground services. ATC is a tool
for pilots to use, not their masters.


Bertie

John Doe wrote in
. net:


A nym shifting cross-posting follow-up changing foulmouthed regular
troll


A k00k.



See also:
Bertie the Bunyip bertie_the_bunyip hotmail.com
Bertie the Bunyip Sn rt.1
Jane Doe AA aa.a.a.a.a.
Mxsmanic mxsmanic gmail.com [impersonation]


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.39!news.alt.net From: Bertie the Bunyip Sn rt.1
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Subject: Does VFR Operation Require A High Level Of Language
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"Robert M. Gary" N7093v gmail.com wrote in
news:1192125688.565381.284690 19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:

On Oct 9, 11:15 am, Bertie the Bunyip S... rt.1 wrote:

I have flown thousands of hours of no radio ops. The place I did
this most at has had one midair over the years.

For this you are proud? Wow baby! I've flown a lot of radioless
aircraft but damn, a JRC isn't that expensive and I keep on in my bag
at all times.


WTF is a JRC?

And why would i need one.

And who said I was proud of it. BTW?

I merely stated a fact.



Bertie

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in
oups.com:

On Oct 9, 2:34 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Robert M. Gary writes:

It's legal and safe if done correctly (at small airports). It may
not be as flexible or prudent as having a radio, but it's allowed and
it isn't careless or reckless.

I think there is an upgrade available from Microsoft where you can
have full ATC.


God forbid you should sim without guidance from someone on the ground to
keep you out of trouble, eh?

Bertie