How dangerous is soaring?

wrote:

But my
main consern still is that people dies. Of course you can die
anywhere, doing anything. But none of my tennis friends hasn't died on
tennis court. None of my icehockey friends hasn't died on ice rink.
None of my sailing friends hasn't died while sailing and so on... But
I've lost and wittnessed way too many fatalities. It totally changes
your view when you are first person on an fatal accident site. Done
that 4 times. Sure there has been stupid errors, but still. You can't
rig your tennis racket wrong...


OK..you're thinking too much.

That's the first sign.

Time to quit.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...aring/200710/1

Fairly stupid comment.

I have come to the same point as Patrick a couple of years ago (although
with just about half the experience) when in my region a had a total of 18
fatalities in one year. Southeastern France is probably the most crowded
gliding aerea you could imagine, but 18 is a lot, and 3 of them were members
of my club.

I was asking myself the question when I would be the next, and I stepped
back from gliding for almost a year to have a thourough thought at it (and
to discuss alot with gliding buddies).

I came to the conclusion that attitude towards the risk of flying is the
most important point, and that the key point for maximum safety is to be
*always* aware of the situation and of one's actual personal abilities and
limits - *always* and in *every* situation. One glitch can be the fatal one.

If others don't follow that rule and have a hard encounter with the planet,
I won't be able to change that.

So I decided to live as best as possible up to that rule, and not to be
negatively influenced by the fate of the 5-10 fellow pilots who die every
year here in Europe.

After that decision, I went and bough my first glider (after 17 years of
club operation).
And I enjoyed every single minute I spent flying it (and the upgrade gliders
which came up eventually). The only question I put myself since was - how to
get more flight time....

Bert


"Kloudy via AviationKB.com" u33403@uwe wrote in message
news:7a84aae7eb4e9@uwe...
wrote:

But my
main consern still is that people dies. Of course you can die
anywhere, doing anything. But none of my tennis friends hasn't died on
tennis court. None of my icehockey friends hasn't died on ice rink.
None of my sailing friends hasn't died while sailing and so on... But
I've lost and wittnessed way too many fatalities. It totally changes
your view when you are first person on an fatal accident site. Done
that 4 times. Sure there has been stupid errors, but still. You can't
rig your tennis racket wrong...


OK..you're thinking too much.

That's the first sign.

Time to quit.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...aring/200710/1

Soaring is riskier than driving a car. Competition soaring and
aggressive cross-country soaring are riskier, still, although they are
typically practiced by more experienced pilots who should (key word)
know how to manage those risks. There's a good article about safety
and risk by former World Champion Bruno Gantenbrink on DG's Web site:
http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/index-e.html. If you fly cross-country or
competitively and haven't read it, please do.

I grew up mouthing the cliche (an international one, apparently, based
on Bruno's article) that the most dangerous part of soaring was the
drive to the airport. In fact, flying is the most dangerous part. In
40+ years of soaring, I've lost quite a few friends and acquaintances
to glider crashes, including my father and my best friend, both highly
experienced pilots. I've been first on the scene at fatal crashes. I
think about the potential downside consequences of soaring before
every contest and often when driving to the gliderport (although,
oddly, seldom when I'm flying). I've got two 13-year-old daughters who
would be devasted if something happened to me while flying.

Yet I continue to fly. Soaring is the most fulfilling, exciting,
rewarding activity I participate in, and I feel more alive for it.
Nothing matches the exhilaration of completing a task or an ambitious
flight knowing I've flown well. And I'm honest enough to admit that if
soaring were completely risk free, it wouldn't have the same appeal. I
suspect more than a few of my fellow pilots share this "condition"
although I would describe none of them as thrill seekers or dare
devils.

Yet I do everything I can to minimize the risks balanced against my
desire to compete and fly cross country. I bought my current glider
because it had a safety cockpit and impact-absorbing landing gear. I
equipped it with a canopy wire deflector bar, an ELT, a 6-point safety
harness, a rear-view mirror, and more than a gallon of easily
accessible drinking water. All this was to keep me out of trouble and
to help me survive trouble if it occurs. I'm considering installing a
transponder or a portable collision avoidance device to reduce what I
think is my biggest risk currently--being hit by a power plane in the
busy airspace where I fly west of New York City. I'm probably more
cautious than some. I know my limits and don't knowingly exceed them.

Soaring isn't for everyone. One pilot I know, a good one, dropped out
of soaring after his wife got sick and died. As much as he loved
soaring, his children were young and he didn't feel it was fair to
them to continue something that increased the risk they might end up
losing both parents. He intends to get back in the game when they're
older. I think he made the right call for him.

I confess that when I was in my 20s, I not only mouthed the cliche
about driving being more dangerous than flying, but I glorified the
risks that even then I acknowledged existed in order to enhance the
sense that I was doing something special, something extreme, something
most people would never experience. Now in my 50s, I see that part of
the appeal of soaring is the ability to push myself up against the
edge of the cliff, look over it, and then back away. I don't need or
want the risk that a power pilot flying head down and locked will plow
into me from behind (as nearly happened a few months ago) or the risk
that someone above me in the gaggle will make a mistake and spin down
through my altitude (as happened a few years ago). The challenge is to
work with the risks I can control. It's the ones I can't control--and
I'd be in denial if I said they didn't exist--that trouble me. There
are enough of those, plus the risk that I will make a bad mistake
someday (I'm not in denial about that, either), to remind me that
soaring is inherently risky compared with most of the other things I
do. To date, those risks are not sufficient to cause me to quit
soaring. But we're all different and what works for me may not apply
to anyone else.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA

Bert Willing wrote:
Fairly stupid comment.


uh, not really.

But despite your poor manner I will elucidate for our thread host.

One year several friends and acquaintances died around me in soaring
accidents.
The year my daughter was born.
Everytime I climbed into the plane I began thinking about how the small
increase in risk to my safety became more acute to those counting on me. The
results of those risks were suddenly clearer, close and personal.
I thought about my friends.
I thought about my family.
Being too careful was starting to interfere with fluid responses to my
piloting.

I was thinking too much. Risk increased.

I Quit for 15 years to reduce the probability of injury in the interest of
those relying on my health.

Returned to soaring as our social/family/financial situation matured.

My mind is not occupied outside the task of piloting anymore.

Too much analysis can be a hazard.

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...aring/200710/1

Patrick....connecting their death with your flying is not a good
approach. Their death , and I would bet the vast majority, was due to
their failure. I don't recall reading about a death due to mechanical
failure, going back 30 or so years.
So, throw all the crap about living life in the can and ask yourself
if you are a good airman. If you suck, you'll probably kill yourself
and I would suggest you find a simpler hobbie.
If you're good, prove it to the rest of us by not doing something that
got your friends killed.
Perhaps you're just getting old and are looking for a reason to quit.
"Take up slack"
R

To R...

I recall couple of Nimbus 4's failing in flight. And one LS-6
(fluttered)




On 31 loka, 00:42, " wrote:
Patrick....connecting their death with your flying is not a good
approach. Their death , and I would bet the vast majority, was due to
their failure. I don't recall reading about a death due to mechanical
failure, going back 30 or so years.
So, throw all the crap about living life in the can and ask yourself
if you are a good airman. If you suck, you'll probably kill yourself
and I would suggest you find a simpler hobbie.
If you're good, prove it to the rest of us by not doing something that
got your friends killed.
Perhaps you're just getting old and are looking for a reason to quit.
"Take up slack"
R

Yes, and a 1-34 or two as well.

We should remember that what we do has some risk. The management of that
risk is what we are about. We can manage more of the risk than, say, a
motorcyclist or a full contact karate participant.

When we get the feeling that what we are about to do is a bit dumb, we
should decide if it is worth it or not. We should know where the traps are,
such as a very marginal final glide in the hope that we will make it
(especially if we have done this before and got away with it)

Of all the forms of "evidence" in Medical and Sociologic research, anecdotal
evidence (I know 3 people who were killed in gliders last year) is the
next-to-last in value.

We all know how to behave---If we just do it we minimize the risk.

I think it is worth it!
--
Hartley Falbaum
DG808C "KF" USA

wrote in message
ps.com...
To R...

I recall couple of Nimbus 4's failing in flight. And one LS-6
(fluttered)




On 31 loka, 00:42, " wrote:
Patrick....connecting their death with your flying is not a good
approach. Their death , and I would bet the vast majority, was due to
their failure. I don't recall reading about a death due to mechanical
failure, going back 30 or so years.
So, throw all the crap about living life in the can and ask yourself
if you are a good airman. If you suck, you'll probably kill yourself
and I would suggest you find a simpler hobbie.
If you're good, prove it to the rest of us by not doing something that
got your friends killed.
Perhaps you're just getting old and are looking for a reason to quit.
"Take up slack"
R

At my present age, my risk of dying on any given day is in the range
of 1 in 80. The additional risk I take on when flying is, by
comparison, relatively small. That said, there's little question that
soaring is more risky than generally believed. When the annual number
of deaths relative to the likely number of soaring participants (hours
would be a better denominator, but the data isn't available) is toted
up, soaring appears to rank right up there with motor racing or
serving in Iraq.

As to the fact that many fatalities involve highly experienced pilots,
it's worth considering that we accumulate age while aquiring
experience; one is protective, the other with it's accompanying loss
of neurologic competence is not.

The choice to participate should be made with a clear understanding of
the risks; for me the rewards are sufficient compensation. Your
milage may vary.

Ray Warshaw
1LK

gliding is not dangerous, but it can be highly unforgiving.

Every decision should be a consious one.

"Is it safe to fly in that direction?"

"should I fly with a audio vario or flarm?"

"did I do a good preflight check?"

Sometimes when I am confrontated with a difficult decision , I pretend that I ask my girlfriend ( flies too) would do. That it itself is already a reason to look for other options.
I also found that it is often not the super pilot that takes the most chances , but more the sub-top "wanna-be's ".

On 31 Oct, 00:56, 1LK wrote:
At my present age, my risk of dying on any given day is in the range
of 1 in 80.

How old are you? A 1 in 80 chance of dying today means that you have a
79 in 80 chance of making it to tomorrow, which is a (79/80)^365 = 1%
chance of making it through a year. I'll bet even 100 year olds have a
better survival rate than that ...

Ian