Ferry flight a commercial op?

buttman wrote in
ps.com:

On Nov 13, 5:53 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
Something like ten years ago, maybe more, there was a case that
involved a skydiving club. One of the members was also a private
pilot and volunteered to fly the jump plane. He thought it a great
way to build free time towards his commercial. Since he was using
the time towards another rating it was deemed to be compensation
since he'd otherwise have to pay for it and the flights were a
commercial operation.


http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf

this case?

If so, in that case, the pilot was in the wrong because he was flying
passengers who had paid to be there. Therefore, even though he wasn't
getting paid, a company (or in this case a skydiving club) was being
compensated for his piloting services. The fact that he was trying to
build time is irrelevant.

In the case of an already-sold plane being delivered to the buyer, the
way I see it, No one is being compensated (the pilot nor the seller)
for the flight.



Desperate to build a little time are we?

I wouldn't bother if I was you.


Bertie

"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...

If the club didn't have to pay for a pilot for services rendered that they
received payment, then the club had a net profit from the pilot's
contribution.


Not necessarily. They could also have a net loss or they could break even.

Kloudy via AviationKB.com wrote:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
because it's a commercial operation,

Maybe he thinks

Sales = Commerce

?

I don't buy it. Are you saying if I sell a plane I own I can't take it to
the buyer or fly it somewhere for a buyer to to see it? I could make the
same flight legally to sell widgets either for myself or my employer.

In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Kloudy via AviationKB.com wrote:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
because it's a commercial operation,

Maybe he thinks

Sales = Commerce

?

I don't buy it. Are you saying if I sell a plane I own I can't take it to
the buyer or fly it somewhere for a buyer to to see it? I could make the
same flight legally to sell widgets either for myself or my employer.

Don't the FARs contain explicit language about demoing airplanes for sale
not requiring a commercial rating?

Not that that applies to my situation - the plane is sold, I'm just
delivering it to the buyer.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
I'm not sure if this is a good or a bad thing.
Probably a bad thing; most things are bad things.
-- Nile Evil *******

Recently, Steven P. McNicoll posted:

"buttman" wrote in message
ps.com...

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf

this case?


Could be.



If so, in that case, the pilot was in the wrong because he was flying
passengers who had paid to be there. Therefore, even though he wasn't
getting paid, a company (or in this case a skydiving club) was being
compensated for his piloting services. The fact that he was trying to
build time is irrelevant.


The club was compensated for skydiving instruction, not for the
services of the pilot.

If the club didn't have to pay for a pilot for services rendered that they
received payment, then the club had a net profit from the pilot's
contribution. The only question is whether someone else's benefit (the
club's) makes an operation commercial for all involved. If so, then a
situation where a club (or flying school) profits from the rental of an
aircraft by a student could get fuzzy real fast. Since that doesn't seem
to be an issue, I'd think that the ferrying of the sold aircraft would
also not be an issue *as long as the pilot paid the expense of the trip*.

Neil

Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Kloudy via AviationKB.com wrote:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
because it's a commercial operation,

Maybe he thinks

Sales = Commerce

?

I don't buy it. Are you saying if I sell a plane I own I can't take
it to the buyer or fly it somewhere for a buyer to to see it? I
could make the same flight legally to sell widgets either for myself
or my employer.

Don't the FARs contain explicit language about demoing airplanes for
sale not requiring a commercial rating?

Not that that applies to my situation - the plane is sold, I'm just
delivering it to the buyer.

You are right and that same PPL aircraft salesman can deliver a plane.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
:


"Neil Gould" wrote in message
...

If the club didn't have to pay for a pilot for services rendered that
they received payment, then the club had a net profit from the pilot's
contribution.


Not necessarily. They could also have a net loss or they could break
even.



IMHO, it's not about the profit.

I would compare the cases to similar situations on the ground. For example,
the case you brought up would compare to an employee of a Limo company who
is not yet commercially rated (have his "hack license) taking the wheel of
a party Limo to build time torward his rating. The riders didn't pay for
the driver, they just payed for a party in a limo. But I think it's pretty
clear that he needs to have his hack license to do this.

The case that the OP brought up is more like if a Limo company sold one of
the town cars to an individual. I don't think I would need a hack license
to drive the town car to the buyer. At that point, I'm just an ordinary
citizen driving a town car.

Maybe I'm full of s%^&* but that's typically how I try to draw the line.
Of course common sense doesn't always apply when it comes to the FAA...

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net said:
Kloudy via AviationKB.com wrote:
Paul Tomblin wrote:
because it's a commercial operation,

Maybe he thinks

Sales = Commerce

?

I don't buy it. Are you saying if I sell a plane I own I can't take
it to the buyer or fly it somewhere for a buyer to to see it? I
could make the same flight legally to sell widgets either for myself
or my employer.

Don't the FARs contain explicit language about demoing airplanes for
sale not requiring a commercial rating?

Not that that applies to my situation - the plane is sold, I'm just
delivering it to the buyer.

You are right and that same PPL aircraft salesman can deliver a plane.


Unless the plane is own personally owned aircraft, a PPL has to have 200
hours logged to legally conduct a "demo" flight with a prospective buyer. As
for example a salesman.

I think delivering will still depend on wether the buyer specifically pays
for delivery, as opposed to being delivered for free.

In a previous article, Helen said:
Here's a good write-up on the subject. Note in the case listed, it
wasn't even logged flight hours that the FAA cited as "compensation,"
but simply "good will."

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...04/pc0403.html

But that's carrying passengers. I'm not going to be carrying passengers.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
There is only one thing worse than walking out to a plane knowing it will
be your last flight - that is walking out to a plane not knowing it will
be your last flight.

Helen wrote in news:fZs_i.6012$VB6.114@trnddc06:

Here's a good write-up on the subject. Note in the case listed, it
wasn't even logged flight hours that the FAA cited as "compensation,"
but simply "good will."

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...04/pc0403.html

In the case you describe, a guy paid a charter service to ferry a bunch of
people back and forth to his restaurant. Instead of paying the charter
service for a second run, his friend made MULTIPLE trips to bring the rest
of the group there.

All of the customers paid for charter services. Even though the pilot
didn't get compensated, the fact is someone who paid to be flown to a party
on an island was flown to a pilot on an island through arrangements of the
receiver of money.

While I think the FAA was probably somewhat harsh on the pilot in this
case, and the explanation of "goodwill" is actually more problematic than
if they would have just said that the flights were not incidental to the
business of transporting the partygoers to the party, the fact is I can see
where this merits the opinion that was made.

Furthermore, I suspect if it were just one trip, no one would have
complained about it - it becomes a guy who gave a lift to some folks that
were headed the same way and missed their plane. But he made several trips
back and forth. In doing so, he essentially competed with the charter
company, and clearly they reported him to the FAA for it.

In the club plane delivery case described above, I don't think any of these
situations need apply. A guy is delivering his club's plane to it's new
owner. He may as well be delivering it to a mechanic for maintenance...

The only case where I might agree with the CFI is if the club was
specifically paid to deliver the plane to the buyer, separately from the
purchase price of the airplane. If that's the case, then it might somewhat
resemble the case you described above.

But I doubt the club was specifically paid for ferrying the plane...