New 29 Palms Winchfest Video

Bill,
You're obviously a hot head.

And with such strong statements, you fail to explain why I should
ground myself, that is, what is it that I am saying that is dangerous
or wrong. Why am I an accident waiting to happen? Unless you explain
yourself it's nonsense and a childish statement on your part. It
speaks to your character.

So to clear things up, please explain what precisely it is that I'm
saying that is dangerous.

You just plain fail to explain how an AoA would save lives and why it
is your pet project about which you feel so defensive. You just make
grand sweeping general statements with no explanation. But and
explanation shouldn't be so hard since you have experience with it and
obvious hard opinions about it.

Since you want full accountability here, your statement:
"There is probably no area of flying where AOA data is more useful and
neccessary than in winch launch. Certainly, it matches landing on a
carrier
deck where AOA data is used by all pilots."

Is just not true. A carrier landing involves a constant AoA and
airspeed on approach, where as on a winch launch, they both
fluctuate. I mean you're starting from 0 and going to full climb mode.
That's hardly a landing. So I hope your reasoning on your AoA is
better than that. Which it very well might be.

I sure wonder how an fairly innocent post such as immediately follows,
gets into the goofy furballs that tend to occupy rec.soaring. I can't
wait to see what my next post will bring! Look for it soon, it will
be very on the edge of our sport.

Innocent post:

One of the event participants patched together a good marketing video
for our club from this years Winchfest at 29 Palms California. Three
winches, four clubs participated in a "best practices" styled event.

Watch the Video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0hDZa41rVc


HoUdino








On Dec 11, 9:44 am, Frank Whiteley wrote:
I have not flown on any other winches, only car tows,
so my question is why no communication?

Did a similar thing in Oklahoma, using noise canceling headsets on the
winch and traffic frequency for speed hacks, but this was a new winch
and some new pilots, so had to shake things out. Works okay in a
remote area with today's low volume of transient power traffic. So
you visit or move to another club. Now, forget what you've used and
learn standard techniques. As a frequent winch driver, I'd rather
everyone was practiced in standard signals and is well ahead of the
glider and the process on each and every launch. Radio calls may not
work well at a big site where multiple winches or aero towing
operations are operating in parallel, or where the traffic frequency
is otherwise cluttered. I am also concerned about pilots in singles
using a hand held radio or mic for this, and even in two seaters, as
there may be very little time to react if something goes pear-shaped,
as there's the ever present danger of dropping either into a control
at the worst possible time. Sod's law. If you have boom or headset
mics and push buttons on the stick, okay, but this is generally no the
case in trainers and many singles. Some may not even have radios. We
use GMRS radios and/or flags to keep off 123.3 for staging and
starting the launch (as there are plenty of other users of the
frequency out there), but use the visual signals for speed control
during the launch.

One day soon, perhaps we'll have additional tools for this.

Frank Whiteley

HoUdini:
Soaring should be fun and we should exchange information, not insults.
But I have to defend myself and challenge someone who says I'm
dangerous.

I actually stopped soaring here in the U.S. for a while due to such
hard heeled opinions and egos.

One can disagree agreeably, no?

But dangerous I am not.

Happy to see that winch launching is getting more traction in my area,
as that's tons more FUN!

On Dec 11, 9:04 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
tommytoyz wrote:
For pilots and operations starting out and trying to gain experience
in safely and efficiently doing winch operations, an AoA serves no
purpose and is an unnecessary distraction.

I can remember when people would argue on R.A.S. that having a GPS or
PDA in the cockpit was an unnecessary distraction.

For people learning to fly it is. It only becomes of use once one is
starting to fly XC.

For some of us,
flying gliders is mostly about "academic curiosity", and looking into
these sorts of things, whether ultimately practical or not, is what
makes the sport fun...

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:
tommytoyz wrote:
At a height of approximately 350 feet during a winch launch, the
glider was observed to be climbing at a slightly steeper than normal
angle. The glider's airspeed was perceived to be abnormally slow and
the winch engine lost rpm. The winch operator adjusted the winch
throttle setting to allow the engine to accelerate but this had little
effect. The glider stalled, yawed to the right and entered a right-
hand spin; during this manoeuvre the cable separated from the glider.
Height was insufficient for recovery and the glider struck the ground
whilst spinning, fatally injuring the pilot.

So, you are saying an AoA meter would be of no benefit, despite the fact
that it would have immediately indicated to the pilot that he was
pulling too hard given the cable speed and tension...

With all due respect, a copy of the BGA Manual in the hands of the
instructor and proper winch training should normally prevent this
situation from developing. The mere fact of that unfortunate pilot
continuing to pull in that situation shows a training problem: why
wasn't he monitoring the ASI?

Anyway, I bet the BGA Manual is a lot cheaper than an AOA indicator
thats accurate enough to use during a winch launch.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

HoUdini wrote:
I sure wonder how an fairly innocent post such as immediately follows,
gets into the goofy furballs that tend to occupy rec.soaring. I can't
wait to see what my next post will bring! Look for it soon, it will
be very on the edge of our sport.

Speaking for myself, I watched the video and saw a succession of
launches with right wing low. As wing low launching is something that,
on my field, would earn you a talk with the duty instructor, I was
unhappy with the description of this being a "best practices" event and
said so.

Maybe in that locality its taught as good aero tow practice: I wouldn't
know about that. I've never flown there. What I do know is that where I
fly it is not good practice with either launch method.

Comment on launch speed. The rules we use a
- after lift off, maintain a shallow climb until the ASI passes 50 kts
with steady acceleration.
- then and only then rotate slowly. The ideal is to complete rotation
not less than 5 seconds after lift off.
- we have a high torque, high inertia, fluid clutch winch. The pilot
cannot and should not attempt to control its speed except by
signalling the winch driver.
- if you're above Vwinch when the launch starts to flatten toward the
top (i.e. when the angle is below 35 degrees or so), release.
- if the speed drops toward 50 kts, lower the nose to maintain at least
50 kts and monitor the speed.
- if the speed picks up, resume the climb.
- if the nose approaches level and the speed doesn't rise, release.

My ASI is top and center in my panel - that's where I want it during
launch and landing. The vario takes a lesser position because it never
needs that degree of immediate attention and anyway I can listen to it.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Martin Gregorie wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:
tommytoyz wrote:
So, you are saying an AoA meter would be of no benefit, despite the
fact that it would have immediately indicated to the pilot that he was
pulling too hard given the cable speed and tension...

With all due respect, a copy of the BGA Manual in the hands of the
instructor and proper winch training should normally prevent this
situation from developing. The mere fact of that unfortunate pilot
continuing to pull in that situation shows a training problem: why
wasn't he monitoring the ASI?

"The glider's airspeed was perceived to be abnormally slow and
the winch engine lost rpm. The winch operator adjusted the winch
throttle setting to allow the engine to accelerate but this had little
effect"

That sounds like it may have been a bit more complicated then a simple
failure to monitor the ASI, in particular, I suspect the initial
sequence of events may have been described out of order. From a pure
dynamics point of view, if you have the stick back during the final
stage of the rotation to climb and the winch looses power, will the
airspeed necessarily decay to near "stall" speed before the glider
actually stalls? It's worth thinking about.


Anyway, I bet the BGA Manual is a lot cheaper than an AOA indicator
thats accurate enough to use during a winch launch.

Absolutely, but if an effective and inexpensive AoA meter was available,
I'd want both...

Marc

Marc,
Let us assume the accident report is accurate,unless you can show why
is would not be. The winch engine did not respond as anticipated and
the pilot kept pulling. So it is a simple failure by the pilot to
monitor airspeed. The people on the ground even could see that it was
slow.

On a winch launch, you can feel and hear the changes in speed as well
as see it on the ASI.

To get back to the question of how to best influence airspeed, the
best answer is don't even try. Just do not try to effect the speed,
let the winch do it for you and if it drops off bellow a certain
point, start shallowing the climb FOR SAFETY REASONS.

The accident report with the DG600 shows what can happen if you don't.

The exact speeds at which you should start shallowing the climb or
even abort and release, depend on glider type and wing loading. Every
pilot launching should know those speeds and the winch driver should
know what glider type he's launching and if it's light or heavy or any
other particulars he should know.

In Germany, even with K-13s we'd give through to the winch driver
"K-13, two pilots, ready for launch".etc......It's the winch driver
that hopefully applies the correct power settings.

Of course sometimes we'd see rocket launches with the sailplane
airborne almost instantly or very high launch speeds that everyone can
hear. Usually the winch driver sees that too and backs off on the
power.

From the beginning, I just wanted to point out here, that winch
launching with a wing low and the pilot trying to influence airspeed
are dangerous practices.

tommytoyz wrote:
Marc,
Let us assume the accident report is accurate,unless you can show why
is would not be. The winch engine did not respond as anticipated and
the pilot kept pulling. So it is a simple failure by the pilot to
monitor airspeed. The people on the ground even could see that it was
slow.

No, I don't think it is a safe assumption that this report is accurate
in and of itself. What you posted is closer to what we call a
"preliminary report" in the US, a collection of observations without
analysis or probable cause. There may more somewhere, but I don't know
how to find it.

The problem I see is with the sequence of events, did the people on the
ground notice the glider was slow before or after the "winch engine lost
rpm"? It does make a big difference.

On a winch launch, you can feel and hear the changes in speed as well
as see it on the ASI.

Yes, I've experienced that in normal winch launches, and experienced and
recognized pre-arranged "power losses" at the winch. I just don't
assume that all such problems are equivalent, and that I or the glider
will always react the same way.

To get back to the question of how to best influence airspeed, the
best answer is don't even try. Just do not try to effect the speed,
let the winch do it for you and if it drops off bellow a certain
point, start shallowing the climb FOR SAFETY REASONS.

Except in the narrow case of a "tension controlled" winch, I haven't
seen anyone advocate trying to control the speed directly. The question
was "what happens to the airspeed if you pull harder", the correct
answer is "it depends".

The accident report with the DG600 shows what can happen if you don't.

No, it shows that the glider got slow, stalled, and spun in, which is
possible in any glider under many different circumstances. I can't
reach any conclusions from the report, other than the simple fact that
the pilot allowed the angle of attack to get too high, something that
can be directly sensed with a proper AoA meter.

The exact speeds at which you should start shallowing the climb or
even abort and release, depend on glider type and wing loading. Every
pilot launching should know those speeds and the winch driver should
know what glider type he's launching and if it's light or heavy or any
other particulars he should know.

Yes, I just don't assume that I can't stall just because the ASI says
I'm going fast enough.

In Germany, even with K-13s we'd give through to the winch driver
"K-13, two pilots, ready for launch".etc......It's the winch driver
that hopefully applies the correct power settings.

Yes, that is what I've experienced in every winch launch. There is
still the interesting question of what happens at specific moments if
the winch driver gets the power setting wrong, or the engine experiences
a momentary loss of power.

Of course sometimes we'd see rocket launches with the sailplane
airborne almost instantly or very high launch speeds that everyone can
hear. Usually the winch driver sees that too and backs off on the
power.

Been there, done that, with the rudder waggling all of the way up.

From the beginning, I just wanted to point out here, that winch
launching with a wing low and the pilot trying to influence airspeed
are dangerous practices.

I agree that launching with a wing low, in general, is an undesirable
practice. Now, it just so happens that I flew a number of launches in
that same 2-33 under similar circumstances the weekend before. There
was almost certainly a 10 knot or more crosswind, the glider was a nose
dragger with an offset CG hook, and the winch did not anywhere near the
initial acceleration I experienced at a number of sites in the UK. This
2-33 showed a remarkable tendency to swing into the wind during the
first few seconds of the launch, and people tried various combinations
of rudder, aileron, wing low, etc., to control the swing. Now, one
might argue with certain choices made there, but the glider belonged to
the host club, using their winch and procedures. I found it a bit
disconcerting, but completely controllable.

And, yes, I posted about trying to influence the airspeed once, in a K21
with a qualified instructor, and we were both curious about whether
their Supacat exhibited constant tension behavior as some had described.
We reached the conclusion that the answer was no, without ever
engaging in dangerous practices...

Marc

On Dec 12, 9:39 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
tommytoyz wrote:
Marc,
Let us assume the accident report is accurate,unless you can show why
is would not be. The winch engine did not respond as anticipated and
the pilot kept pulling. So it is a simple failure by the pilot to
monitor airspeed. The people on the ground even could see that it was
slow.

No, I don't think it is a safe assumption that this report is accurate
in and of itself. What you posted is closer to what we call a
"preliminary report" in the US, a collection of observations without
analysis or probable cause. There may more somewhere, but I don't know
how to find it.

The problem I see is with the sequence of events, did the people on the
ground notice the glider was slow before or after the "winch engine lost
rpm"? It does make a big difference.

On a winch launch, you can feel and hear the changes in speed as well
as see it on the ASI.

Yes, I've experienced that in normal winch launches, and experienced and
recognized pre-arranged "power losses" at the winch. I just don't
assume that all such problems are equivalent, and that I or the glider
will always react the same way.

To get back to the question of how to best influence airspeed, the
best answer is don't even try. Just do not try to effect the speed,
let the winch do it for you and if it drops off bellow a certain
point, start shallowing the climb FOR SAFETY REASONS.

Except in the narrow case of a "tension controlled" winch, I haven't
seen anyone advocate trying to control the speed directly. The question
was "what happens to the airspeed if you pull harder", the correct
answer is "it depends".

The accident report with the DG600 shows what can happen if you don't.

No, it shows that the glider got slow, stalled, and spun in, which is
possible in any glider under many different circumstances. I can't
reach any conclusions from the report, other than the simple fact that
the pilot allowed the angle of attack to get too high, something that
can be directly sensed with a proper AoA meter.

The exact speeds at which you should start shallowing the climb or
even abort and release, depend on glider type and wing loading. Every
pilot launching should know those speeds and the winch driver should
know what glider type he's launching and if it's light or heavy or any
other particulars he should know.

Yes, I just don't assume that I can't stall just because the ASI says
I'm going fast enough.

In Germany, even with K-13s we'd give through to the winch driver
"K-13, two pilots, ready for launch".etc......It's the winch driver
that hopefully applies the correct power settings.

Yes, that is what I've experienced in every winch launch. There is
still the interesting question of what happens at specific moments if
the winch driver gets the power setting wrong, or the engine experiences
a momentary loss of power.

Of course sometimes we'd see rocket launches with the sailplane
airborne almost instantly or very high launch speeds that everyone can
hear. Usually the winch driver sees that too and backs off on the
power.

Been there, done that, with the rudder waggling all of the way up.

From the beginning, I just wanted to point out here, that winch
launching with a wing low and the pilot trying to influence airspeed
are dangerous practices.

I agree that launching with a wing low, in general, is an undesirable
practice. Now, it just so happens that I flew a number of launches in
that same 2-33 under similar circumstances the weekend before. There
was almost certainly a 10 knot or more crosswind, the glider was a nose
dragger with an offset CG hook, and the winch did not anywhere near the
initial acceleration I experienced at a number of sites in the UK. This
2-33 showed a remarkable tendency to swing into the wind during the
first few seconds of the launch, and people tried various combinations
of rudder, aileron, wing low, etc., to control the swing. Now, one
might argue with certain choices made there, but the glider belonged to
the host club, using their winch and procedures. I found it a bit
disconcerting, but completely controllable.

And, yes, I posted about trying to influence the airspeed once, in a K21
with a qualified instructor, and we were both curious about whether
their Supacat exhibited constant tension behavior as some had described.
We reached the conclusion that the answer was no, without ever
engaging in dangerous practices...

Marc


Marc the full report can be read he

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=re...MDXYLA2mZvELyA

I don't think you should second guess it unless you have a valid
reason to.

Second, even you say:

"No, it shows that the glider got slow...........' Don't you think an
ASI would show you the slow airspeed? Also, if the pilot is not paying
attention to the ASI, why would you pay attention to an AoA?

Anyway, the report also says that the cause may have been caused by
the pilot shifting position during launch due to acceleration and
particulars of his harness, forcing him to move the stick back. But
the effect, no matter the reason, was that he stalled due to lack of
airspeed or AoA, if that's what you prefer to go by. It doesn't
matter.

You also say:
"I just don't assume that all such problems are equivalent, and that I
or the glider
will always react the same way."

However, you should always react in the same way to remain safe and
not vary it around. If the airspeed or AoA, are going the wrong way,
the reaction must always be the same - gradually lower the nose to
only a shallow climb or even abort if it gets too low - period. If the
winch resumes power before you have to abort, you can gradually resume
normal climb, so long as the power remains sufficient to keep the
airspeed or AoA up.

If the winch power cuts out, even temporarily, this is the only safe
reaction that will maintain enough airspeed or proper AoA to avoid a
stall.

There are no other safe reactions. So I hope you ALWAYS react this
way.