soaring into the future

Bill Daniels wrote:
Let me predict that in the near future, one and perhaps two US based
manufacturers will be offering a FAR better winch design than the Skylaunch
at a similar price. Hang tight.

What's the winch community's opinion on a "hybrid" winch, which uses an
electric motor and batteries to do the launch, and a generator to keep
the batteries charged? That might give a more easily controlled,
possibly automated, power system, but retain the indpendence of a
gas/diesel winch.

Lighter weight gliders, coupled with smaller, lower cost winches that
are dead simple to operate (or can perform the launch automatically)
might do more for growing the sport than a somewhat cheaper version of
the gliders we fly now.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Lighter weight gliders, coupled with smaller, lower cost winches that
are dead simple to operate (or can perform the launch automatically)
might do more for growing the sport than a somewhat cheaper version of
the gliders we fly now.

Hi Eric,

Maybe instead of the word "cheaper" we could use modern and
affordable!
These new Modern and Affordable sailplanes could be designed from the
start to take advantage of these "alternative" methods of launch!

Brad

Eric, George Moore of Spokane is working on exactly the approach you
suggest. Electric drive offers a seamless CVT drive that lets a computer
control the launch to a degree of precision no human winch driver can
approach. That precision allows the use of much higher rope tension with
much greater safety than the old automobile V8 and non-electronic 4-speed
transmission.

The key enabler for electric winches is the frenetic work being done on
electric, and electric hybrid cars. The required parts are available now
but not at attractive prices. The hope is that once these vehicles are in
mass production in 5 - 10 years, the component prices will drop
substantially.

Oh yes, I should mention the rather elegant ESW-2B from Germany which uses
50 car starting batteries as a buffer to store enough power for ~20
launches. This winch is usually connected to the grid to keep the huge
battery pack topped up but it can also use a diesel generator. A grid tap
or a generator adds substantially to the cost but where electricity is
available or where there are extremely noise sensitive airfield neighbors,
it's a viable choice.

So, the concept of an electric winch is very elegant but not quite
economically attractive at this point. It's worth point out that diesel -
hydrostatic drive (Hydraulic pumps and motors) achieves the same degree of
controllability and the components are almost a commodity. My guess is that
hydrostatic drive is the near term solution and electric is a good bet for
the middle future if the component prices can drop below hydrostatic
components.

Bill Daniels

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:wlRcj.2733$si6.2097@trndny08...
Bill Daniels wrote:
Let me predict that in the near future, one and perhaps two US based
manufacturers will be offering a FAR better winch design than the
Skylaunch at a similar price. Hang tight.

What's the winch community's opinion on a "hybrid" winch, which uses an
electric motor and batteries to do the launch, and a generator to keep the
batteries charged? That might give a more easily controlled, possibly
automated, power system, but retain the indpendence of a gas/diesel winch.

Lighter weight gliders, coupled with smaller, lower cost winches that are
dead simple to operate (or can perform the launch automatically) might do
more for growing the sport than a somewhat cheaper version of the gliders
we fly now.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

Bill Daniels wrote:

Oh yes, I should mention the rather elegant ESW-2B from Germany which uses
50 car starting batteries as a buffer to store enough power for ~20
launches. This winch is usually connected to the grid to keep the huge
battery pack topped up but it can also use a diesel generator. A grid tap
or a generator adds substantially to the cost but where electricity is
available or where there are extremely noise sensitive airfield neighbors,
it's a viable choice.

I googled it - awesome winch! One for aircraft under 1000 pounds
(instead 1900 pounds like the ESW) should be practical now, including
launching L-13 Blaniks, 2-33, unballasted 15 meter gliders, and all the
Russia/SparrowHawk/Apis/1-26/Ka-6e/etc that you can find.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

At 18:30 27 December 2007, wrote:
Well Steve, you need to come to the convention and
meet with Brad,
me,
and some other like minded folks. I completely agree
with your first
post about the geezers with money, (sorry guys).

BTW are you THE Steve Davis, Genesis guy from CO?

MM

Hi Matt,
Yea, it's me. I have teenage relatives in town so
I'm making daily trips to Keystone. I think the
earlier snowboarding analogy was right on.
Snowboarding wasn't developed by older skiers
and it isn't as fast or exciting to watch as downhill
or slalom. Older skiers, the 'purists' tried very
hard for many years to keep snowboards off the
slopes. Riders were young, with limited money,
who wanted to have fun and they invented and
transformed the sport. By the mid nineties
even the old geezers with bad knees and ankles
were learning to ride. If skiing had been a club
sport I doubt that riding would have had a chance
to take off. The older club members would have
banded together to prevent it. Soaring is in the
same pickle. It won't be rescued by clubs.

At 18:30 27 December 2007, wrote:
Well Steve, you need to come to the convention and
meet with Brad,
me,
and some other like minded folks. I completely agree
with your first
post about the geezers with money, (sorry guys).

BTW are you THE Steve Davis, Genesis guy from CO?

MM

Hi Matt,
Yea, it's me. I have teenage relatives in town so
I'm making daily trips to Keystone. I think the
earlier snowboarding analogy was right on.
Snowboarding wasn't developed by older skiers
and it isn't as fast or exciting to watch as downhill
or slalom. Older skiers, the 'purists' tried very
hard for many years to keep snowboards off the
slopes. Riders were young, with limited money,
who wanted to have fun and they invented and
transformed the sport. By the mid nineties
even the old geezers with bad knees and ankles
were learning to ride. If skiing had been a club
sport I doubt that riding would have had a chance
to take off. The older club members would have
banded together to prevent it. Soaring is in the
same pickle. It won't be rescued by clubs.

I think this discussion is going the wrong way. If you are going to
redefine soaring in the future, you don't start with the hardware -
you have to define what the sport of soaring is going to evolve
into.

As far as low cost gliders, guys, they already exist - been to a local
paraglider/hangglider field lately?

But as long (and I want to caveat this statement by emphasizing that
I'm talking about soaring in the US, not other countries) as we
attempt to push soaring as "a cheap way to fly" it will continue to
stagnate.

You see it at all but a few enlightened glider operations: Emphasis
on "how inexpensive" soaring is compared to power flying; training in
beat-up low performance antique gliders, availability of similar beat-
up low performance antique gliders for post-solo/ post license flying
- and the new glider pilot gets bored and wanders off to spend his
money on a pair of new quads, or a bass boat, etc. And you are left
with the old codgers who leaned to fly in primaries and think a 1-26
is the bees knees, or total glassholes who get serious on their own
and discover the dark side - that soaring is a SPORT, not just a way
to fly.

You want to grow soaring? Look at all those clowns riding their $3000
carbon fiber bicycles wearing gaudy spandex. Most will never actually
race, but they enjoy pretending, and socializing, and riding with
their friends in race-like conditions.

Or check out all the motocross bikes being ridden for fun - most never
actually race, but it's fun to pretend, and it's even more fun to play
with the same hardware the pro's use!

Yet at many glider clubs, just try to suggest that the club should
push XC, or racing, or that every student should be required to get
his Silver. The howls of "we don't want to race", "XC is dangerous",
"that's not what the club should be teaching", and "soaring isn't
about XC and racing" get deafening.

Interestingly, this attitude often from some old codger, as he gets
into his pristine ASW-20 for a 3 hour local flight, while the newly
minted glider pilot struggles through his mandated 1-hour flight in
the club single seater (glass, if he's lucky), knowing that if he
DARES to landout, there will be hell to pay (since there isn't a
trailer for the glider, and nobody knows how to derig it anyway...).

So - While new developments in gliders are always welcome (and we
desperately need to replace all those horrible 2-33s and 1-26s in club
fleets), we also have to define our sport, and get that image out
where the people with the time and money to soar are waiting to be
discovered

A final thought - when was the last time there was a cover story about
soaring in Sports Illustrated? Or any story? SSA, what's your
excuse?

Kirk
66

PS: Winch launching is the future. 2000' with no noise, fun even
when there isn't any lift, green (get those Prius buyers
interested...). Combine with sexy glass ships, and people will stop
by to watch the show....

snipPS: *Winch launching is the future. /snip

Watching a winch launch is what got me into this sport (*).

Racing and x/c are what got me hooked on it (**).

-ted/2NO

* Wiener Neustadt, Austria, July 2002.
** Drinking beer while watching sunsets and talking about the day's
flights didn't hurt either!

"Tuno" wrote in message
...
snipPS: Winch launching is the future. /snip

Watching a winch launch is what got me into this sport (*).

Racing and x/c are what got me hooked on it (**).

-ted/2NO

* Wiener Neustadt, Austria, July 2002.
** Drinking beer while watching sunsets and talking about the day's
flights didn't hurt either!

If you run the numbers, it looks like if you redirect a significant fraction
of the money now spent on aero tows into new gliders, with the remainder
going to support a winch, you can afford nice two seaters - even ASK-21's
with no increasse in the total dollars spent.

The problem is getting your mind around the huge up-front cost of a modern
winch.

If you again run the numbers to see the per-launch costs by amortizing that
up-front cost over a 30 year life you see that the per-launch capital costs
are on the order of $1. The operating costs may be as much as $3 per. If
you charge $10 - $15 per launch and apply the excess to retire a loan taken
out to buy the winch, you should pay it off in two or three years if the
winch is used frequently. Once the winch is paid off, the price could be
dropped to $5 per launch or kept at $15 to pay off all those K-21's and
DG1000's you bought.

The only 'gotcha' is that you have to use the winch agressively so it
generates the cash flow.

By 'agressively' I mean averaging 50 or so launches every day you fly. That
shouldn't be a problem since a lot of pilots will buy several $15 launches
even when there is no hope of lift. One German club did just under 400
launches in one day with a two-drum winch. An RAF cadet group did over 600
launches in a day with a 6-drum winch. 50 shouldn't stress anybody out.

It seems to me that scenario is a win-win-win-win........

Bill Daniels

Very interesting thread.

Im glad to see that a few people enjoy my reports of cheap dirty fun
flying in the upper midwest. I'll keep it up.

Sometimes someone asks me when im going to buy a different glider. my
standard response is "when i can afford something better than what I
have!" Fact is we all are going to buy the best glider we can for the
money. I didnt buy the Cherokee cause I was in love with a 40 year
old wood glider. Or because i thought the forward swept tail (like a
mooney) looked cool. I didnt even buy it because it had stellar 25:1
performance. I only bought it because the price tag equalled the
amount of money I could scrape up over a summer of working, and I
really wanted a glider!

Saying that 40:1 + is necessary for going cross country is a great way
to kill enthusiasm and interest in the sport. now now now, i know that
there is a lot of unlandable terrain out west and it may be a good
idea to either have good performance or lots of alititude out there,
but I have had great fun on some pretty short low altitude flights
here in the midwest. Obviously you can go out there with low
performance but you must tip toe.

If composite construction is so difficult then why not make it metal?
pulling rivets is a pretty simple task.

carry on...