Spin to impact AOA

On 14 Jan, 21:30, "kirk.stant" wrote:

Huh? Cite please.

Plenty of accounts of WW1 aeial fighting. Hiding in cloud was an
accepted and commonly used tactic.

If you think you can cloud fly using only airspeed, then make sure
your glider has terminal velocity dive brakes - you'll need them!

I have no intention of trying it ... and yes, I have proper air
brakes, thank you!

Or maybe they used the Cat and Dog method...

Cat and duck, surely?

Ian

Cue cheap "the fokkers are shooting me" joke.

Cut to the BBC interviewing an RAF pilot.

Pilot: So, this Fokker was on my tail and shooting at me.
Interviewer: I should mention to the audience that a Fokker is a type of
German airplane.
Pilot: That's right, but this Fokker was a Messerschmitt.

On Jan 14, 4:28*pm, Ian wrote:
On 14 Jan, 21:30, "kirk.stant" wrote:

Huh? Cite please.

Plenty of accounts of WW1 aeial fighting. Hiding in cloud was an
accepted and commonly used tactic.

If you think you can cloud fly using only airspeed, then make sure
your glider has terminal velocity dive brakes - you'll need them!

I have no intention of trying it ... and yes, I have proper air
brakes, thank you!

Or maybe they used the Cat and Dog method...

Cat and duck, surely?

Ian

Ah, yes, Ian, that's the one, thank you!

Getting my pilot aides mixed up. The dog is required to keep the
pilot from touching the autopilot switches, if I remember correctly.
Much later development than the cat and duck letdown technique.

Anyway - It's just possible, in a plane with strong inherent
stability, to climb or let down hands-off through a cloud deck. This
may have been what those intrepid WW1 aviators were doing. But I
wouldn't recommend it in a modern glider (unless you have established
a benign spiral procedure).

From practical experience in instrument conditions - unless the plane
can do it by itself, the pilot WILL only make it worse, if he doesn't
have suitable instrumentation AND training.

So - it sure would be nice to have a simple attitude display on our
fancy PDAs, for those days when the horizon insists on hiding from
view....

Kirk

Or Maybe "LEAD POISONING"???

Scott


Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 09:34:02 -0800 (PST), Ian
wrote:



It's interesting that WW1 pilots used to fly blind in cloud regularly.
They also used to fly up to 20,000' and occasionally higher without
oxygen. It's amazing what you can do when you don;t know it's
impossible!


Indeed.
But please check the average lifespan of a WW1 pilot.

Google for "ww1 pilot lifespan".

The results on the first page only mention life spans of 15.5 flying
hours, three weeks, and a loss rate of 77 percent of the French
pilots.

Maybe the things you mentioned played a role?





Bye
Andreas

--
Scott
http://corbenflyer.tripod.com/
Gotta Fly or Gonna Die
Building RV-4 (Super Slow Build Version)

On Jan 14, 10:31 pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Jan 14, 4:28 pm, Ian wrote:



On 14 Jan, 21:30, "kirk.stant" wrote:

Huh? Cite please.

Plenty of accounts of WW1 aeial fighting. Hiding in cloud was an
accepted and commonly used tactic.

If you think you can cloud fly using only airspeed, then make sure
your glider has terminal velocity dive brakes - you'll need them!

I have no intention of trying it ... and yes, I have proper air
brakes, thank you!

Or maybe they used the Cat and Dog method...

Cat and duck, surely?

Ian

Ah, yes, Ian, that's the one, thank you!

Getting my pilot aides mixed up. The dog is required to keep the
pilot from touching the autopilot switches, if I remember correctly.
Much later development than the cat and duck letdown technique.

Anyway - It's just possible, in a plane with strong inherent
stability, to climb or let down hands-off through a cloud deck. This
may have been what those intrepid WW1 aviators were doing. But I
wouldn't recommend it in a modern glider (unless you have established
a benign spiral procedure).

From practical experience in instrument conditions - unless the plane
can do it by itself, the pilot WILL only make it worse, if he doesn't
have suitable instrumentation AND training.

So - it sure would be nice to have a simple attitude display on our
fancy PDAs, for those days when the horizon insists on hiding from
view....

Kirk

Get out your checkbook, here it is.

http://www.flynavgps.com/egyro.htm

But a dedicated AI might be cheaper and more reliable :-)

Todd
3S

On Jan 15, 6:42*am, toad wrote:
On Jan 14, 10:31 pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:





On Jan 14, 4:28 pm, Ian wrote:

On 14 Jan, 21:30, "kirk.stant" wrote:

Huh? Cite please.

Plenty of accounts of WW1 aeial fighting. Hiding in cloud was an
accepted and commonly used tactic.

If you think you can cloud fly using only airspeed, then make sure
your glider has terminal velocity dive brakes - you'll need them!

I have no intention of trying it ... and yes, I have proper air
brakes, thank you!

Or maybe they used the Cat and Dog method...

Cat and duck, surely?

Ian

Ah, yes, Ian, that's the one, thank you!

Getting my pilot aides mixed up. *The dog is required to keep the
pilot from touching the autopilot switches, if I remember correctly.
Much later development than the cat and duck letdown technique.

Anyway - It's just possible, in a plane with strong inherent
stability, to climb or let down hands-off through a cloud deck. *This
may have been what those intrepid WW1 aviators were doing. *But I
wouldn't recommend it in a modern glider (unless you have established
a benign spiral procedure).

From practical experience in instrument conditions - unless the plane
can do it by itself, the pilot WILL only make it worse, if he doesn't
have suitable instrumentation AND training.

So - it sure would be nice to have a simple attitude display on our
fancy PDAs, for those days when the horizon insists on hiding from
view....

Kirk

Get out your checkbook, here it is.

http://www.flynavgps.com/egyro.htm

But a dedicated AI might be cheaper and more reliable :-)

Todd
3S- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Boy! You guys are good! A collection of knowledge very hard to find.
Every post has value. My original point is to find a way to reduce the
errors a pilot might make when too low to recover. My guess is that
AoA is not fully understood before flight as PIC.
Control of an aircraft needs information fed to the brain.
Instrument Indicators, visual pictures remembered and a mind that is
on the job are so important. Believe your indications. Feel can fail
at times. Strings help and they can be installed by all pilots. Get
something better, but don't dismiss the side mounted string and a line
marked on the canopy for a chord line.
I'll go to bed feeling like this discussion will save lives. Fred.

On Jan 13, 9:05*am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
To tie Fred's comments about false horizons to the thread on mountain
flying, think about the situation when you descend into a mountain valley.
As you drop below the ridge line, you lose a useful horizon reference. *If
you keep the nose on the jagged line between ridge top and sky, your nose
will get higher and higher as you continue the decent - you have to point
the nose at some indeterminate point on the sides of the valley to maintain
the desired airspeed and prevent a stall.

This is a subtitle trap that snares many 'flatland' pilots on their first
mountain trip - usually in an overloaded Cessna 172 right after takeoff.
These pilots have learned to use the familiar, reliable horizon line at
their home airports. *It's always there and they have always relied heavily
on it. *Take it away, and their pilot skills evaporate.

It's quite possible to fly pitch attitude with reference to the airspeed
indicator but that's a instrument rated pilot *"partial panel" trick and
most pilots either aren't trained to do it or aren't good at it.

An AOA indicator solves the problem nicely.

Bill Daniels

"fredsez" wrote in message

...



So many good ideas on AoA. *Much thought and real considerationhas
have been expressed. Something (A-HA!) came to mind.
Visual indicators!
Back in 1901, *or some where about then, I flew a 1-26 to a really
high altitude. I had left the area of recognizable land and decided to
look at the ground and figure out where I was. Before I had that good
idea, I was looking right at the sun, well above the horizon.
Looking down, all I could see was black! The land was in definate
NIGHT TIME!
I have always been a FLAT EARTH person. I have also watched the sun go
around the earth! I get up with the sun in the east and go to bed with
it setting in the west.
From umpteen thousand ft, I spotted a little (very little) strip of
light. There was where I decided they would find my body. I opened the
airbrakes and managed to find a lighted strip of asphalt at an
intersection in Nevada.
The rest of the story is interesting (to me) but has little to do
with AoA.

At my air strip, when you turn onto base leg, the ground rises, *With
the horizon high, pilots tend to raise the nose to see a normal sight
picture. Airspeed slows,.. things don't look right and some push
rudder to point the nose down the runway...or at the tie-down area.

At thousands of ft in the air, the horizon looks low relative to the
instrument panel. At pattern altitude, the horizon looks higher and
may lead a pilot to raise the nose, losing airspeed in the turn onto
final. I need to make changes. What should I do? Maybe reverse the
pattern and let pilots see the lower horizon and tend to make them let
the nose down? Maybe I ought to go to bed and let things be as they
will be.
Fred.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Chuckle .........That's what I do when I see Fred here...haha

Doesn't anyone use trim anymore? Some good aircraft fly best when they
are not being touched.
Some of them even thermal well by themselves.with a good trim setting.
In the Blanik it used to be all the way back. When teaching beginners,
I would show them how well aircraft fly by themselves.

Guess as an old mtn-pilot, that's what I have always used: Trim and
airspeed x-check. The 1-26, even in 1901 must have had a decent trim
tab? Never owned one, but in the 2-33 I always remember yelling to the
student in front" And now...trim forward. For some it would take a
while to figure that out with that funny latch. With it all the way
forward that bird would hurry home nicely. Of course one have to let
it, and not use your biceps much.

Coming back to the Blanik ...a little more advanced, after thermaling
tightly with trim al the way back. If the pilot would forget to
readjust the trim for level flight one could find oneself in a stall-
spin situation! Teaching in the Blanik I would do that some time,
sneak the trim slowly back. A student with a touch or feel would
notice, also eye for airspeed. Muscel people would make a spin entry.

Yeah Fred, didn't we have fun?

Dieter Gliders Of Aspen