Russia's 'Blackjacks' fly again

"BUFDRVR" wrote in message
...
actually the TU-95 is an almost exact copy (in concept) of the late 40s
original version of the Boeing B-52(a very swept wing with 4 engine pods
each with 2 contra rotating props driven by 2 turbine engines) later in
the
design program the prop engines were replaced by the new "jet" engines
being
developed at the time. Perhaps BUFDRVR has enough background to confirm
this?


The original BUFF was designed to be a prop, but when the USAF demanded an
all
jet bomber, Boeing designers were forced (over a weekend) to redsign her
as an
all jet bomber. I don't believe the design was for counter-rotating props
though. Additionally, I doubt the Bear was a "BUFF rip-off", they have
very
little in common design wise.

Yes the original design shown to the Air Force by George Schairer (the same
Boeing engineer that had found the German swept wing data at the Goering
Aeronautical Research Institute in May 1945) had counter rotating props. The
recommendation to continue development of the swept wing pure jet bombers
along the lines of B-47 and B-55 came from Dr. Waldemar Voight, a German
advisor to the USAF. The Air Force dumped on the Boeing proposal on a
Thursday, the three man Boeing team (Schairer, Carlsen, Blumenthal) was
augmented by Ed Wells from Seattle and two members of the B-55 team already
in Dayton on other business. Wells drew the plan, Wells and Schairer made
the model and the others did the weight and performance calculations. The
Air Force told the Boeing team the following Monday that they had a winner
and to forget about the B-55. The original of course had a tandem cockpit
that LeMay demanded be changed. Anyway these six guys created one of the
most significant if not THE most significant aircraft ever conceived over a
working weekend in the Van Cleve Hotel in Dayton Ohio.




BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

From: Kristan Roberge
Date: 2/2/2004 12:17 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:



Stinky Moron wrote:

"Fred J. McCall" wrote in message
...
The Russians were doing ASM standoff missiles when we were still
piddling about with gravity bombs. So, again, who copied who here?


Well I guess the Russians copied the US once again.
They must have heard of the US Azon guided bomb which was used during WWII.

No, if anything the concept of ASM standoff missiles is something they
learned
from the germans
inWW2. Ya know, the country that actually HAD them and managed to sink a few
major ships with them.

How many "major ships" and how do you define "major ships?" As far as I know
no battlewagons, heavy cruisers, light cruisers or aircraft carriers were sunk
by ASMs.


Don't those Russkis ever get an original idea?

The same could be asked about the americans.

True, considering the Russians scientists have never been dummies despite
having abysmal leadership going back to the Czars. It can be said that the U.S.
first successful satellite looked a lot like Sputnik.

Not everything of great technical importance comes from the Russians and the
U.S. alone. It's just that those countries have been willing to spend the most
money over the long haul in the 20th century. Now go back to preceding
centuries. Where was the steam engine first made practical? Who invented the
chronometer which made ship navigation more accurate? Who discovered a small
pox vaccine? Who invented lighter than air flight? That's just going back to
the 1700s when the U.S. and Russia were both in existance.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

In article ,
B2431 wrote:
inWW2. Ya know, the country that actually HAD them and managed to sink a few
major ships with them.

How many "major ships" and how do you define "major ships?" As far as I know
no battlewagons, heavy cruisers, light cruisers or aircraft carriers were sunk
by ASMs.

HMS Spartan (Black Prince class light cruiser) was certainly sunk by
an air-launched guided missile (Hs-293) in, IIRC, 1943. The same year
the Italian battleship Roma was sunk by a guided bomb (Fritz-X) while
on her way to Malta to surrender, and the battleship Warspite was
mission-killed, completely immobilised and only saved from sinking
by some very good damage-control work.

That said, Germany certainly didn't invent guided missile (certainly not
the surface-to-surface guided missile) as both Britain and the US trialled
such devices around the end of WW1 - there's a nice picture around of
a British destroyer in about 1918 with a SSM launcher mounted forward
(a catapult for a small radio-controlled bomb-carrying aeroplane).

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: Kristan Roberge
Date: 2/2/2004 12:17 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:



How many "major ships" and how do you define "major ships?" As far as I
know
no battlewagons, heavy cruisers, light cruisers or aircraft carriers were
sunk
by ASMs.


At least one battleship (Roma) and the cruiser HMS Spartan were sunk
another battleship (HMS Warspite) was severely damaged as were
two cruisers (HMS Uganda and USS Savanna).

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: Kristan Roberge
Date: 2/2/2004 12:17 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:



How many "major ships" and how do you define "major ships?" As far as
I
know
no battlewagons, heavy cruisers, light cruisers or aircraft carriers
were
sunk
by ASMs.


At least one battleship (Roma) and the cruiser HMS Spartan were sunk
another battleship (HMS Warspite) was severely damaged as were
two cruisers (HMS Uganda and USS Savanna).

To keep things in perspective regarding Fritz-X, it had a reported 20%
success rate ( www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an41a.htm ). Probably better
than the US Azon (VB 1 thru 3), and quite an accomplishment by the standards
of the day, but still a mediocre performer overall.

Brooks


Keith

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...



At least one battleship (Roma) and the cruiser HMS Spartan were sunk
another battleship (HMS Warspite) was severely damaged as were
two cruisers (HMS Uganda and USS Savanna).

To keep things in perspective regarding Fritz-X, it had a reported 20%
success rate ( www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an41a.htm ). Probably better
than the US Azon (VB 1 thru 3), and quite an accomplishment by the
standards
of the day, but still a mediocre performer overall.

Brooks


The success rate would probably have been rather higher had
a jammer for the radio control system not been rushed into
operation.

Keith

How many "major ships" and how do you define "major ships?" As far as I
know
no battlewagons, heavy cruisers, light cruisers or aircraft carriers were
sunk
by ASMs.

Roma springs immediately to mind - speared and sunk by Major Bernd. Jope, who
Hitler personally decorated for the act. To me, that would be a 'major ship',
as it was a front line, modern battleship. I have a small collection of things
from Jope, recording this action, including a photo of Roma's death throes.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote in message
...



At least one battleship (Roma) and the cruiser HMS Spartan were sunk
another battleship (HMS Warspite) was severely damaged as were
two cruisers (HMS Uganda and USS Savanna).

To keep things in perspective regarding Fritz-X, it had a reported 20%
success rate ( www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/annex/an41a.htm ). Probably
better
than the US Azon (VB 1 thru 3), and quite an accomplishment by the
standards
of the day, but still a mediocre performer overall.

Brooks


The success rate would probably have been rather higher had
a jammer for the radio control system not been rushed into
operation.

Which led to the first use of wire guided variants, IIRC--without really
changing the success rate.

Brooks


Keith

Actually, both would probably be a better approximation, though I am unaware
of any German scientists being used by the US to develop PGM's--do you have
any evidence of that?

I know of one - but I dont know how he would feel about me identifying him
online so I need to leave it at that. Guy worked directly on the land-attack
cruise missile, retiring from GD after 30 years on our team, following a stint
working with geheime stuff in the old Last Reich.

From: "Keith Willshaw"
Date: 2/2/2004 8:27 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:


"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: Kristan Roberge
Date: 2/2/2004 12:17 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:



How many "major ships" and how do you define "major ships?" As far as I
know
no battlewagons, heavy cruisers, light cruisers or aircraft carriers were
sunk
by ASMs.


At least one battleship (Roma) and the cruiser HMS Spartan were sunk
another battleship (HMS Warspite) was severely damaged as were
two cruisers (HMS Uganda and USS Savanna).

Keith

I stand corrected.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired