Bush on WMD: None so blind as those who would not see

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...

When did we adopt stopping mass murder and rape as a national policy?
Seems
to
me that Clinton took a lot of heat for involving us in what used to be
called
Yugoslavia, when the Serbs decided that killing their Muslim neighbors
and
raping their womenfolk would be good sport. AIR, the only Repug who
thought
we
ought to be doing something about it at the time was Bob Dole, and he
had
precious little support from his own party in his views.


Perhaps you do not remember the highly successful American intervention
in Bosnia under Geroge H. Bush.

I'm afraid that I don't. But then, neither do you. Our intervention in
Bosnia
took place in early December of 1995.

NATO declared a no-fly zone over Bosnia in October 1992. NATO attacks in
Bosnia began in earnest in September, 1995. It was a Bush admininstration
action that was continued and expanded under Clinton.

I've posted evidence of the 1995 date being accurate elsewhere, and you're
invited to seek it out and enlighten yourself. Before you get yourself all
entangled in mixing apples and oranges, how about checking the data you have
that refers to 1992 and see if it's in the same context as the 1995 stuff that
relates to what NATO called its first involvement in Bosnia. Maybe all of the
16 nations that make up NATO forgot that they had had an earlier involvement.
Doesn't seem likely, but perhaps it's worth taking a crack at.

On 5 Feb 2004 03:21:16 GMT, wrote:

In rec.food.cooking john wrote:

Let's also blame Clinton for the missing WMD in Iraq.

Too bad Bush didn't make a complete list of all the bad things he
inherited from Clinton when he took office. then he could have warned
the public.

The Repugs are just two-faced hypocrites. They love to blame Clinton for a recession that
started when Bush talked down the economy. Despite their desire to bash Clinton for Bush's
receission, they claim that Clinton had nothing to do with the eight years of record-setting
prosperity we had in this country and the best managed federal budget since WW II, but when

Clinton racked up 1.4 trillion dollars in debt, increasing the size
of that debt by 31%, that's hardly the best managed budget since
WW II. The best since WW2 goes to Truman, who increased the size of
the public debt by 3% during his two terms of office.

The last president who actually reduced the size of the public debt
was Coolidge.

--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft

On 5 Feb 2004 03:17:50 GMT, wrote:

In rec.food.cooking Mike Dargan wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"james_anatidae" wrote in message
...


All right, simple question. Can you really say you're better off than you
were four years ago?



Let's see, four years ago the economy was slowing, today the economy is
growing. Yup, looks like we can really say we're better off today than we
were four years ago.


During the Bush Boom, the economy has managed to lose 3 million jobs.

And add roughly around $22,000 worth of federal debt onto every person in this country.

Your math is off, the public debt has not increased by 6.4 trillion
dollars since he started signing federal budgets.

Currently there is (according to the latest figures) 23,960 in debt
for every American. Here is where 95% of that debt comes from.

4,078 - Bush Jr
4,772 - Clinton
5,312 - Bush Sr
6,252 - Reagan
1,059 - Carter
1,199 - Nixon/Ford

It seems that neither party has nothing to brag about when the topic
of fiscal responsibility comes up.
--
"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability
of the human mind to correlate all its contents." - H.P. Lovecraft

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message ...
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
....
NATO first declared a no-fly zone onver Bosnia in October, 1992,
under Bush. NATO began fighting in Bosnia in earnest in September,
1995. The Bush policy was continued and expanded under Clinton.

The following was dated December 18, 1995. I wonder why they had their dates
so screwed up way back then.

U.S. Troops Begin Bosnia Intervention

BY MAURICE WILLIAMS

U.S. president Bill Clinton is moving at full steam to implement Washington's
decision to send 20,000 troops to Bosnia as part of a 60,000-strong NATO
occupation force. "This task force is ready to roll," he told U.S. soldiers
in Germany December 2. They will be among the first of the NATO units in
Bosnia.
Gearing up for war, Clinton told the GIs they would be heavily armed and
could respond "immediately and with decisive force" to hostilities.
The White House is deploying such a massive force in a workers state for the
first time in decades. The State Department's official goal is to enforce the
partition of Bosnia, agreed to by the warring regimes in the former Yugoslav
republics in a deal brokered by Washington on a military base in Dayton,
Ohio, November 21. The masters of the U.S. empire are trying to boost their
military and economic domination of the region, get one up on their European
competitors, particularly Paris and Bonn, and take a stab at re-establishing
capitalism in the former Yugoslavia.
The first NATO unit composed of 28 soldiers landed in Sarajevo December 4 and
included two GIs. Some 3,000 U.S. soldiers are imminently expected to arrive
in Kaposvar, Hungary, for a brief stopover on the way to Bosnia by train.
Overall, 32,000 U.S. military personnel will be involved in the action,
including the 20,000 GIs in Bosnia, 5,000 in Croatia, and 7,000 support
troops in Hungary and Italy.
The parliament in Germany voted December 6 to approve sending 4,000 German
soldiers to the Balkans - Bonn's largest military mission abroad since World
War II.

Judging from the words of our own Secretary of State in addressing the NATO
foreign and defense ministers in Brussels, Belgium on December 5, 1995, he seems
to have been under the impression that NATO was not yet involved. Take a look:

"Mr. Acting Secretary-General, distinguished colleagues: It is a
great privilege for Secretary Perry and me to speak with you today on
behalf of the United States and President Clinton. For the first time
in NATO's history, all 16 of our foreign ministers and all 16 of our
defense ministers are meeting together. As we prepare to launch this
historic mission in Bosnia, our Alliance has never been more united."

I think I'll stick with my 1995 starting date. At least I can produce some
evidence that backs it up.


Thanks.

It was the UN which declared the no-flight zone in October 1992. NATO
first began considering enforcement of it late in 1992:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=na...uic.edu&rnum=2

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=na...m=1&fil ter=0

NATO airstrikes in Bosnia were reported on Nightline, Sept 12,1995:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ai...num=1&filter=0

Clinton was president.

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
...
NATO first declared a no-fly zone onver Bosnia in October, 1992,
under Bush. NATO began fighting in Bosnia in earnest in September,
1995. The Bush policy was continued and expanded under Clinton.

The following was dated December 18, 1995. I wonder why they had their
dates
so screwed up way back then.

U.S. Troops Begin Bosnia Intervention

BY MAURICE WILLIAMS

U.S. president Bill Clinton is moving at full steam to implement
Washington's
decision to send 20,000 troops to Bosnia as part of a 60,000-strong NATO
occupation force. "This task force is ready to roll," he told U.S.
soldiers
in Germany December 2. They will be among the first of the NATO units in
Bosnia.
Gearing up for war, Clinton told the GIs they would be heavily armed and
could respond "immediately and with decisive force" to hostilities.
The White House is deploying such a massive force in a workers state for
the
first time in decades. The State Department's official goal is to enforce
the
partition of Bosnia, agreed to by the warring regimes in the former
Yugoslav
republics in a deal brokered by Washington on a military base in Dayton,
Ohio, November 21. The masters of the U.S. empire are trying to boost
their
military and economic domination of the region, get one up on their
European
competitors, particularly Paris and Bonn, and take a stab at
re-establishing
capitalism in the former Yugoslavia.
The first NATO unit composed of 28 soldiers landed in Sarajevo December 4
and
included two GIs. Some 3,000 U.S. soldiers are imminently expected to
arrive
in Kaposvar, Hungary, for a brief stopover on the way to Bosnia by train.
Overall, 32,000 U.S. military personnel will be involved in the action,
including the 20,000 GIs in Bosnia, 5,000 in Croatia, and 7,000 support
troops in Hungary and Italy.
The parliament in Germany voted December 6 to approve sending 4,000 German
soldiers to the Balkans - Bonn's largest military mission abroad since
World
War II.

Judging from the words of our own Secretary of State in addressing the NATO
foreign and defense ministers in Brussels, Belgium on December 5, 1995, he
seems
to have been under the impression that NATO was not yet involved. Take a
look:

"Mr. Acting Secretary-General, distinguished colleagues: It is a
great privilege for Secretary Perry and me to speak with you today on
behalf of the United States and President Clinton. For the first time
in NATO's history, all 16 of our foreign ministers and all 16 of our
defense ministers are meeting together. As we prepare to launch this
historic mission in Bosnia, our Alliance has never been more united."

I think I'll stick with my 1995 starting date. At least I can produce some
evidence that backs it up.


Thanks.

It was the UN which declared the no-flight zone in October 1992. NATO
first began considering enforcement of it late in 1992:


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=na...uic.edu&rnum=2

The above cite was a link to an editorial from the NY Times. While the UN may
have declared a no-fly zone over Bosnia, it apparently wasn't enforced by
anybody, and certainly not by NATO. Here's how the editorial put it:

"in defiance of a no-fly order declared by the U.N. When will the West bestir
itself long enough to enforce this order?"



http://groups.google.com/groups?q=na...m=1&fil ter=0

NATO airstrikes in Bosnia were reported on Nightline, Sept 12,1995:


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ai...num=1&filter=0

And here's the cruz of what is applicable from the above link:

"The United States and its NATO allies formally agreed to give the United
Nations
military plans for enforcing a no-fly zone over Bosnia that includes shooting
down Serbian warplanes."

So, if that happened in 1992 and it took 3 years to get around to having NATO
actually do something about it, I think I'll still stick with 1995 as the
starting date.

Clinton was president.

My point exactly.

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message ...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...



NATO airstrikes in Bosnia were reported on Nightline, Sept 12,1995:


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ai...num=1&filter=0

And here's the cruz of what is applicable from the above link:

"The United States and its NATO allies formally agreed to give the United
Nations
military plans for enforcing a no-fly zone over Bosnia that includes shooting
down Serbian warplanes."


Wrong. Those words do not appear in that article at all.

Here's an exerpt:

September 12, 1995

DAVE MARASH, ABC News: "Neither in sorrow nor in anger,
American pilots and their vast military support network
have taken up the task of bombing Serb separatist military
positions in Bosnia. Most of them launch from the vast
Aviano NATO air base north of Venice. This is their view of
what they're doing. While ground crews scramble at the 510th
Fighter Squadron, the self-named Bosnia Buzzards, lead man
``Psycho'' is briefing his wingman, ``Doc.''


--

FF

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...



NATO airstrikes in Bosnia were reported on Nightline, Sept 12,1995:



http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ai...num=1&filter=0

And here's the cruz of what is applicable from the above link:

"The United States and its NATO allies formally agreed to give the United
Nations
military plans for enforcing a no-fly zone over Bosnia that includes shooting
down Serbian warplanes."


Wrong. Those words do not appear in that article at all.

Here's an exerpt:

September 12, 1995

DAVE MARASH, ABC News: "Neither in sorrow nor in anger,
American pilots and their vast military support network
have taken up the task of bombing Serb separatist military
positions in Bosnia. Most of them launch from the vast
Aviano NATO air base north of Venice. This is their view of
what they're doing. While ground crews scramble at the 510th
Fighter Squadron, the self-named Bosnia Buzzards, lead man
``Psycho'' is briefing his wingman, ``Doc.''

Possibly the link was wrong. But what you provided also indicated a 1995
starting date, not 1992. Here's another extract from a speech made by our Secy
of State to the NATO foreign and defense ministers on December 5, 1995, where he
makes reference to preparing to take action.

"U.S. Department of State
95/12/05 Secretary NATO Intervention
Office of the Spokesman



U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman

(Brussels, Belgium)
December 5, 1995


INTERVENTION
BY
SECRETARY OF STATE WARREN CHRISTOPHER
AT THE MEETING OF NATO FOREIGN AND
DEFENSE MINISTERS ON BOSNIA


Mr. Acting Secretary-General, distinguished colleagues: It is a
great privilege for Secretary Perry and me to speak with you today on
behalf of the United States and President Clinton. For the first time
in NATO's history, all 16 of our foreign ministers and all 16 of our
defense ministers are meeting together. As we prepare to launch this
historic mission in Bosnia, our Alliance has never been more united."

In addition, the following was extracted from an article by Jane Sharp entitled
"The West's Moral Failure" published in the Journal of the Atomic Scientists,
which substantiates Daddy Bush's reluctance to get involved in Bosnia at the end
of his term in 1992:

"During the early summer of 1991, when Serbia first invaded Slovenia and
Croatia, both of which sought independence from Yugoslavia, President George
Bush passed the responsibility for resolving the Yugoslav crisis to the 12
countries of the European Community (EC). In the absence of U.S. leadership,
however, the Europeans proved inept and uncertain. A year later, when Yugoslavia
had disintegrated into five separate states and Serbian atrocities in Bosnia
were reported, President Bush referred to the Bosnian conflict as a mere hiccup.
Even in early January 1993, Bush was still unwilling to intervene in Bosnia. He
had, however, sent troops to feed the starving in Somalia, and in two speeches
(at Texas A&M University and at West Point) he attempted to redefine policy on
intervention. In contrast to Weinberger, Bush did not limit the use of force to
the protection of vital national interests. He proposed that "military force may
not be the best way of safeguarding something vital, while using force might be
the best way to protect an interest that qualifies as important but less than
vital."

I think I'll rest my case right there. I still say that the starting date of any
meaningful intervention in Bosnia by the US occurred during Clinton's first term
of office. He gets credit if it worked out right, and blame if not. Bush Sr.
quite obviously was not involved.

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message ...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...
...
NATO first declared a no-fly zone onver Bosnia in October, 1992,
under Bush. NATO began fighting in Bosnia in earnest in September,
1995. The Bush policy was continued and expanded under Clinton.

The following was dated December 18, 1995. I wonder why they had their
dates
so screwed up way back then.

U.S. Troops Begin Bosnia Intervention

BY MAURICE WILLIAMS

U.S. president Bill Clinton is moving at full steam to implement
Washington's
decision to send 20,000 troops to Bosnia as part of a 60,000-strong NATO
occupation force. "This task force is ready to roll," he told U.S.
soldiers
in Germany December 2. They will be among the first of the NATO units in
Bosnia.
Gearing up for war, Clinton told the GIs they would be heavily armed and
could respond "immediately and with decisive force" to hostilities.
The White House is deploying such a massive force in a workers state for
the
first time in decades. The State Department's official goal is to enforce
the
partition of Bosnia, agreed to by the warring regimes in the former
Yugoslav
republics in a deal brokered by Washington on a military base in Dayton,
Ohio, November 21. The masters of the U.S. empire are trying to boost
their
military and economic domination of the region, get one up on their
European
competitors, particularly Paris and Bonn, and take a stab at
re-establishing
capitalism in the former Yugoslavia.
The first NATO unit composed of 28 soldiers landed in Sarajevo December 4
and
included two GIs. Some 3,000 U.S. soldiers are imminently expected to
arrive
in Kaposvar, Hungary, for a brief stopover on the way to Bosnia by train.
Overall, 32,000 U.S. military personnel will be involved in the action,
including the 20,000 GIs in Bosnia, 5,000 in Croatia, and 7,000 support
troops in Hungary and Italy.
The parliament in Germany voted December 6 to approve sending 4,000 German
soldiers to the Balkans - Bonn's largest military mission abroad since
World
War II.

Judging from the words of our own Secretary of State in addressing the NATO
foreign and defense ministers in Brussels, Belgium on December 5, 1995, he
seems
to have been under the impression that NATO was not yet involved. Take a
look:

"Mr. Acting Secretary-General, distinguished colleagues: It is a
great privilege for Secretary Perry and me to speak with you today on
behalf of the United States and President Clinton. For the first time
in NATO's history, all 16 of our foreign ministers and all 16 of our
defense ministers are meeting together. As we prepare to launch this
historic mission in Bosnia, our Alliance has never been more united."

I think I'll stick with my 1995 starting date. At least I can produce some
evidence that backs it up.


Thanks.

It was the UN which declared the no-flight zone in October 1992. NATO
first began considering enforcement of it late in 1992:


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=na...uic.edu&rnum=2

The above cite was a link to an editorial from the NY Times. While the UN may
have declared a no-fly zone over Bosnia, it apparently wasn't enforced by
anybody, and certainly not by NATO. Here's how the editorial put it:

"in defiance of a no-fly order declared by the U.N. When will the West bestir
itself long enough to enforce this order?"



http://groups.google.com/groups?q=na...m=1&fil ter=0

NATO airstrikes in Bosnia were reported on Nightline, Sept 12,1995:


http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ai...num=1&filter=0

And here's the cruz of what is applicable from the above link:

"The United States and its NATO allies formally agreed to give the United
Nations
military plans for enforcing a no-fly zone over Bosnia that includes shooting
down Serbian warplanes."

So, if that happened in 1992 and it took 3 years to get around to having NATO
actually do something about it, I think I'll still stick with 1995 as the
starting date.

Clinton was president.

My point exactly.

George Z.

The combat air patrols started in Spring of 1993. The first shoot down
of aircraft took place in February 1994 when USAF F-16s shot down four
Galeb attack aircraft that were in the process of attacking a factory.
During the Summer of 1993 NATO (including US deployed aircraft) were
providing CAS patrols to UNPROFOR. During 1994 NATO aircraft
(including US assets) bombed and strafed Bosnian-Serb ground forces
several times. The first large scale bombing mission took place during
November 1994 against Udbina airbase.

TJ

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message ...
Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
"George Z. Bush" wrote in message
...
"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
om...



NATO airstrikes in Bosnia were reported on Nightline, Sept 12,1995:



http://groups.google.com/groups?q=ai...num=1&filter=0

And here's the cruz of what is applicable from the above link:

"The United States and its NATO allies formally agreed to give the United
Nations
military plans for enforcing a no-fly zone over Bosnia that includes shooting
down Serbian warplanes."


Wrong. Those words do not appear in that article at all.

Here's an exerpt:

September 12, 1995

DAVE MARASH, ABC News: "Neither in sorrow nor in anger,
American pilots and their vast military support network
have taken up the task of bombing Serb separatist military
positions in Bosnia. Most of them launch from the vast
Aviano NATO air base north of Venice. This is their view of
what they're doing. While ground crews scramble at the 510th
Fighter Squadron, the self-named Bosnia Buzzards, lead man
``Psycho'' is briefing his wingman, ``Doc.''

Possibly the link was wrong.

I provided three links in .

You miatributed text to the third which I thin you extracted from the
second.

But what you provided also indicated a 1995
starting date, not 1992.

So does the text I wrote prefacing the link.


I think I'll rest my case right there. I still say that the starting date of any
meaningful intervention in Bosnia by the US occurred during Clinton's first term
of office.

Had you read my earlier articles you wold realize that I already came
agreed on that point. However, the December 1995 date refers to the
deployment of NATO ground forces, which occurred after the conflict
had essentially been ended by the earlier air campaign. Both the air
campaign and the subsequent ground troop deployment was, as you noted,
during the Clinton Administration. IMHO, he did well in the Balkans.

--

FF

"George Z. Bush" wrote in message ...

I've posted evidence of the 1995 date being accurate elsewhere, and you're
invited to seek it out and enlighten yourself.

see

--

FF