Armed forces of an independent Scotland

In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Sure, but it means you get to pay for them (and most of the support and
TacDev is way down south, meaning you need to pay again to duplicate it
if it's a hostile split). Balkanisation isn't usually a good idea (I
mean, _look_ at the Balkans - would _you_ want to live there?)

What do you meam by all the support is down there? We have the Clyde
Submarine base and Rosyth Dockyard for navy

Need tactics? The Maritime Warfare Centre is in Portsdown, on the south
coast. Want to maintain the nuclear warheads? Aldermaston wasn't in
Scotland last time I looked. How about the torpedoes for self-defence?
Also southern UK. Countermeasures? Ultra Electronics, also based south
of the border.

and Lossie RAF and so on.

Spare parts come from Warton, which is - guess where? Armaments are BAE
and MBDA, which again aren't Scotland-based.

If a
split comes about we are entitled to a FAIR share.

Sure, but just remember there's more to a military than counting tanks
(aircraft, ships, whatever)

Also, what do you mean we would have to pay for it? We have paid our share
of it all along.

Certainly - but how do you propose to equitably divide the staff and
facilities of HMS Collingwood? And who pays for moving your share north?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
It's tracked, it's got a turret, it's a tank to any roving reporter.
(Just because the Army call it an 'infantry fighting vehicle' - what do
a bunch of illiterate squaddies know that a highly-trained reporter
doesn't?)

Just like any rowboat with a GPMG is a "battleship" and a Piper Cub or
Cessna becomes an "advanced attack aircraft" when the meedja get
frothing.

Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
Oh! Aye! I've met your type of people all my working life. I worked in
Radio/RADAR/SONAR/RADIC and other military electronic fields from 1952 until
I retired. Now. in certain specialities, I also did work for other branches
of the armed forces and even hospitals and, believe it or not, museums.

Congratulations. I've got fourteen years in weapon system development
(civilian side), five years in uniform, and currenty do operational
analysis direct for the Navy.

Now, what has your misguided little rant got to do with the general
idiocy of the press corps?

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Sure, but it means you get to pay for them (and most of the support and
TacDev is way down south, meaning you need to pay again to duplicate it
if it's a hostile split). Balkanisation isn't usually a good idea (I
mean, _look_ at the Balkans - would _you_ want to live there?)

What do you meam by all the support is down there? We have the Clyde
Submarine base and Rosyth Dockyard for navy

Need tactics? The Maritime Warfare Centre is in Portsdown, on the south
coast. Want to maintain the nuclear warheads? Aldermaston wasn't in
Scotland last time I looked. How about the torpedoes for self-defence?
Also southern UK. Countermeasures? Ultra Electronics, also based south
of the border.

Ever heard of Pitreivie?

and Lossie RAF and so on.

Spare parts come from Warton, which is - guess where? Armaments are BAE
and MBDA, which again aren't Scotland-based.
Ever heard of Almondale. BTW: There are armament depots very close to Rosyth
and the Clyde bases. Foreby which what would stop an independent Scotland
leasing the the former UK and then USA Gairloch base to say, an independent
India, Pakistan, Iraq, North or South Korea, Palistine or any other
potential enemy of England?

Who cares about spares anyway. Did you really miss the point by such a wide
margin?
That kind of scenario would only happen if England attempted to hold on to
everything and Scotland had to impound what was in Scotland. Thus England
would be creating an enemy from a friend. Now even England would not be so
very stupid, (would she). What would any country want to be creating an
enemy on her own front step? That would be crazy. Any tin pot nation in the
World could attake England and have a ready made treaty with the Scots just
begging to be signed. Not even England is that stupid. Just imagine trying
to stop terrorist activity from Ireland and Scotland while attemting to
fight of some enemy from the Far or Middle East at the same trime. There is
only one logical defence policy for an independent England and Scotland - a
joint treaty to defend each other.

If a
split comes about we are entitled to a FAIR share.

Sure, but just remember there's more to a military than counting tanks
(aircraft, ships, whatever).

I seem to know just a little more about that subject than you seem to do.
You it is seeing England and Scotland as enemies. That would be sheer
madness. considering modern warfare. Why, even those traditional old enemies
France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and so on are now banding together. What
with the rise of the USA and her protectionist and saber rattling designs on
World domination if Europe does not band together then the next step on a
global scene will see the middle and far east, the former USSR and sundry
other nations being the only possible power bloc to be able to stand against
them. Had you not noticed the change in how Empires are now controlled? No
more the gun boat up the river, no more the expeditionary force. Now it is
the Multi-national company and the value of their shares. What now is, "An
American Company", and just who holds shares in it?

Also, what do you mean we would have to pay for it? We have paid our
share
of it all along.

Certainly - but how do you propose to equitably divide the staff and
facilities of HMS Collingwood? And who pays for moving your share north?

The same ones who paid for it becoming centralised there in the first place.
You just have to purge your brain from this is our English this that or the
other. Are you really trying to tell someone who spent a major part of his
life on courses at Collingwood that every member of the staff were English?
Are you seriously attempting to say all the Jolly Jacks squaddies and fly
guys are English? Not so long ago the main Naval Artificers Training was
done at HMS Cochrane and the nearby Naval Shore Base. Rosyth Dockyard also
were the ones who first refitted the nuclear submarines and we were the ones
who developed the methods used. Last I heard Devonport had not yet quite
made it as nearly so efficient as we did it at Rosyth.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Furthermore many of the guys who build the Royal Navy ships are Scots and
they are not, like myself, dead yet.
--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
E-Mail:-
(Tak oot the wee dug tae send e-mail).


---
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"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
It's tracked, it's got a turret, it's a tank to any roving reporter.
(Just because the Army call it an 'infantry fighting vehicle' - what do
a bunch of illiterate squaddies know that a highly-trained reporter
doesn't?)

Just like any rowboat with a GPMG is a "battleship" and a Piper Cub or
Cessna becomes an "advanced attack aircraft" when the meedja get
frothing.

Frae Auld Bob Peffers:
Oh! Aye! I've met your type of people all my working life. I worked in
Radio/RADAR/SONAR/RADIC and other military electronic fields from 1952
until
I retired. Now. in certain specialities, I also did work for other
branches
of the armed forces and even hospitals and, believe it or not, museums.

Congratulations. I've got fourteen years in weapon system development
(civilian side), five years in uniform, and currenty do operational
analysis direct for the Navy.

Now, what has your misguided little rant got to do with the general
idiocy of the press corps?
I think I answered that but as it seems to have wooshed over your head I'll
repeat some of it.

I, and a majority of UK people, read the facts about the Afghan and Iraqi
situation and the information came directly from that, "Idiotic", press
corp.
In view of the reports this week of the doings of the USA senate and the
expected report about to hit the UK government. It looks like that, "Idiotic
Press Corps", got it smack on and it was the military, "so called",
intelligence that got it wrong.

No WMDs.
No bin Laden,
Iraq in turmoil,
UK and USA now in far more danger of attack.
UK &USA's standing in the eyes of the World rated zero or in the minus.

Seems the majority of we UK citizens, on information from, "THE IDIOTIC
PRESS CORP", got it right.

Now as to your own record. I lived through WWII, I was call-up age at the
time of the Korean war and I did 50 odd years in defence posts, much of
which I cannot talk about, (none of which matters for the whole World now
knows that UK & USA military intelligence got it wrong and heads are still
polling because of it.
--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
E-Mail:-
(Tak oot the wee dug tae send e-mail).


---
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In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Spare parts come from Warton, which is - guess where? Armaments are BAE
and MBDA, which again aren't Scotland-based.
Ever heard of Almondale.

No. How many of the design teams for Eurofighter, Harrier, Tornado,
Jaguar et al are based there?

BTW: There are armament depots very close to Rosyth
and the Clyde bases.

Yes, there are. Unfortunately, if you think you can support your torpedo
outloads through them, they're dependent on support from BAE SYSTEMS
Waterlooville, which is about as far from Scotland as you can get and
still be part of the British mainland. (Do those depots make their own
spare parts? No, they don't, they depend on the manufacturer)

You don't seem to understand the difference between "an armaments depot"
(which does routine maintenance and support) and the corporate backup
where you have the design authorities who have to sign off even simple
modifications like using self-amalgamating tape to seal an interface
cable (very few of whom are in Scotland)

Foreby which what would stop an independent Scotland
leasing the the former UK and then USA Gairloch base to say, an independent
India, Pakistan, Iraq, North or South Korea, Palistine or any other
potential enemy of England?

And you assume that simply because they're enemies of "the rest of the
United Kingdom" (more to it than just Scotland and England, Bob) they'll
be kind and friendly allies of Scotland with your best interests at
heart?

Who cares about spares anyway. Did you really miss the point by such a wide
margin?

"Who cares about spares anyway" shows that you have no idea about how to
*keep your forces fighting*. The difference between Third World armies
with thousands of tanks (only a fraction of which can actually move and
fight) and Western forces whose tanks are far fewer but can strike
hundreds of miles into enemy territory and actually *win wars* - is
logistics. Making sure that those vehicles have fuel, ammunition and
spare parts; that the crew have food, water and replacement NBC IPE.

That kind of scenario would only happen if England attempted to hold on to
everything and Scotland had to impound what was in Scotland.

Which is a SNP fantasy and irrelevant. If Scotland wanted to go, then
too bad, how sad, and it's damage limitation for the rest of the UK.

Thus England
would be creating an enemy from a friend. Now even England would not be so
very stupid, (would she). What would any country want to be creating an
enemy on her own front step? That would be crazy.

It was not I who suggested that the first step in the game should be
thermonuclear blackmail, Bob.

Any tin pot nation in the
World could attake England and have a ready made treaty with the Scots just
begging to be signed. Not even England is that stupid.

Right - Scotland is going to be North Korea's bosom buddy.

Pray tell how they bring supplies, weapons and aid to you, and what
value this adds to your situation.

Just imagine trying
to stop terrorist activity from Ireland and Scotland while attemting to
fight of some enemy from the Far or Middle East at the same trime.

Nuclear-armed terrorists? Call in the US and turn everything north of
Jedburgh into a glow-in-the-dark parking lot.

There is
only one logical defence policy for an independent England and Scotland - a
joint treaty to defend each other.

Why, if Scotland's policy begins with nuclear blackmail and moves on to
overt terrorism?

You want to be an enemy, act like one. You want a peaceful split, sit
down and talk.


Sure, but just remember there's more to a military than counting tanks
(aircraft, ships, whatever).

I seem to know just a little more about that subject than you seem to do.

"Who cares about spares anyway?"

Your words, not mine. Proves you know a damn sight less than you think
you do.

You it is seeing England and Scotland as enemies.

No, I'm seeing you considering thermonuclear blackmail and sponsorship
of terrorism. These aren't friendly acts. If I lived north of the
border, I'd cut your keyboard cable. Since I live south of the border,
I'll settle for pointing out how your mixture of aggression and
ignorance makes even ethnic Scots like me wince.

That would be sheer
Certainly - but how do you propose to equitably divide the staff and
facilities of HMS Collingwood? And who pays for moving your share north?

The same ones who paid for it becoming centralised there in the first place.

The UK MoD?

But there is no United Kingdom in your scenario. You're asking for the
change in the status quo, it seems that it's up to you to propose an
acceptable scheme.

Meanwhile, how much compensation do you intend to pay for depriving the
rest of the UK of its nuclear deterrent? Lots of interesting intangibles
to go around.

Or are we into that playground attitude of everything in Scotland is
100% Scots, but we want 'our fair share' of everything else _as well_?

You just have to purge your brain from this is our English this that or the
other. Are you really trying to tell someone who spent a major part of his
life on courses at Collingwood that every member of the staff were English?

Of course not. Are you telling me that any part of HMS Collingwood is in
Scotland?

Since it and its staff are resolutely stuck down in Gosport, how do you
propose to split off "the fair Scottish share" and transport it north?
And how well would the two fragments work afterwards? What happens when
there's no Scotsman in a given field and you're hauling an Englishman,
Welshman or Irishman up? Do you tell him 'instruct well or we nuke your
home?'


Who gets the Anti-Air Warfare Tactical Development desk officer?
(There's only one of them and he's neither Scottish nor inclined to move
north...) Have you budgeted and planned for training your own? Or are
you making this up as you go along?

Are you seriously attempting to say all the Jolly Jacks squaddies and fly
guys are English?

Of course not. I'd ask rather, how many of them are Scotsmen who'd
embrace secession?

Furthermore many of the guys who build the Royal Navy ships are Scots and
they are not, like myself, dead yet.

Indeed: but naval shipbuilding is an area of significant overcapacity,
so this is also a poor threat to make.




--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Congratulations. I've got fourteen years in weapon system development
(civilian side), five years in uniform, and currenty do operational
analysis direct for the Navy.

Now, what has your misguided little rant got to do with the general
idiocy of the press corps?
I think I answered that but as it seems to have wooshed over your head I'll
repeat some of it.

I, and a majority of UK people, read the facts about the Afghan and Iraqi
situation and the information came directly from that, "Idiotic", press
corp.
In view of the reports this week of the doings of the USA senate and the
expected report about to hit the UK government. It looks like that, "Idiotic
Press Corps", got it smack on and it was the military, "so called",
intelligence that got it wrong.

Which "press corps" were you reading? I had most of the UK daily press
on hand and other than the Daily Mirror and the Guardian, they were
baying for Iraqi blood. WMEs in development, dissidents fed feet-first
through industrial shredders, torture, rape, genocide, you name it.

(And I don't even like the Daily Mirror and the Guardian, I just go
through the Grauniad for an attempt at balance)

Seems the majority of we UK citizens, on information from, "THE IDIOTIC
PRESS CORP", got it right.

How remarkably revisionistic. Stories about how Saddam Hussein owned
hundreds of tons of fully weaponised WMEs that he could hurl at enemies
within the hour, prove that he was actually defenceless?

Now as to your own record. I lived through WWII, I was call-up age at the
time of the Korean war and I did 50 odd years in defence posts, much of
which I cannot talk about, (none of which matters for the whole World now
knows that UK & USA military intelligence got it wrong and heads are still
polling because of it.

Congratulations.

Unfortunately, you seem to have learned very little from the experience.


You disagree that the press will report a frigate, a sloop, a corvette,
even an armed motorboat as "a battleship" to suit their story?

You can say "Who cares about spare parts?" with a straight face?

Either you learned nothing from your service, or your claims are
fraudulent.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Spare parts come from Warton, which is - guess where? Armaments are BAE
and MBDA, which again aren't Scotland-based.
Ever heard of Almondale.

No. How many of the design teams for Eurofighter, Harrier, Tornado,
Jaguar et al are based there?
None. your point was supply parts. Have you still not understood the point
that is being made to you? We are NOT in favour of being a World power in
Scotland. We want shot of Nukes. We are very much against the invasion of
sovereign states by the UK and USA, (and no I am NOT assuming to speak for
ALL Scots. I am quoting to you the results of countless surveys carried out
over many years. Scots are very much more in favour of joining fully with
the rest of Europe than the English too. Now run along and play with your
little dangerous toys. If you understand them as well as you do what is
being said to you then I shudder to think of the consewquencies.

BTW: There are armament depots very close to Rosyth
and the Clyde bases.

Yes, there are. Unfortunately, if you think you can support your torpedo
outloads through them, they're dependent on support from BAE SYSTEMS
Waterlooville, which is about as far from Scotland as you can get and
still be part of the British mainland. (Do those depots make their own
spare parts? No, they don't, they depend on the manufacturer)

IDIOT! GO PLAY YOUR SILLY WAR GAMES SOMEWHERE ELSE. You fail to understand
what is being said to you and seem determined to set a rediculous scenario.
If Scotland parts from England it is our right to have a fair share of the
assets we have paid for and it is in both countries best interests to deal
with each other for our mutual benefit only an idiot would even dream of any
other scenario. I mention that it would be disaserous for England to even
attempt to do other than deal with Scotland as a partner, for that is what
we are according to the treaty of union, and you are set on an all out war
between the two countries.Awa an bile yir heid.

snip

--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
E-Mail:-
(Tak oot the wee dug tae send e-mail).


---
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"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...
Congratulations. I've got fourteen years in weapon system development
(civilian side), five years in uniform, and currenty do operational
analysis direct for the Navy.

Now, what has your misguided little rant got to do with the general
idiocy of the press corps?
I think I answered that but as it seems to have wooshed over your head
I'll
repeat some of it.

I, and a majority of UK people, read the facts about the Afghan and Iraqi
situation and the information came directly from that, "Idiotic", press
corp.
In view of the reports this week of the doings of the USA senate and the
expected report about to hit the UK government. It looks like that,
"Idiotic
Press Corps", got it smack on and it was the military, "so called",
intelligence that got it wrong.

Which "press corps" were you reading? I had most of the UK daily press
on hand and other than the Daily Mirror and the Guardian, they were
baying for Iraqi blood. WMEs in development, dissidents fed feet-first
through industrial shredders, torture, rape, genocide, you name it.

(And I don't even like the Daily Mirror and the Guardian, I just go
through the Grauniad for an attempt at balance)

Seems the majority of we UK citizens, on information from, "THE IDIOTIC
PRESS CORP", got it right.

How remarkably revisionistic. Stories about how Saddam Hussein owned
hundreds of tons of fully weaponised WMEs that he could hurl at enemies
within the hour, prove that he was actually defenceless?

Now as to your own record. I lived through WWII, I was call-up age at the
time of the Korean war and I did 50 odd years in defence posts, much of
which I cannot talk about, (none of which matters for the whole World now
knows that UK & USA military intelligence got it wrong and heads are
still
polling because of it.

Congratulations.

Unfortunately, you seem to have learned very little from the experience.


You disagree that the press will report a frigate, a sloop, a corvette,
even an armed motorboat as "a battleship" to suit their story?

You can say "Who cares about spare parts?" with a straight face?

Either you learned nothing from your service, or your claims are
fraudulent.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
PLONK!
--

Aefauldlie, (Scots word for Honestly),
Robert, (Auld Bob), Peffers,
Kelty,
Fife,
Scotland, (UK).
Web Site, "The Eck's Files":- http://www.peffers50.freeserve.co.uk
E-Mail:-
(Tak oot the wee dug tae send e-mail).


---
Aa ootgannin screivings maun hae nae wee beasties wi thaim..
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.712 / Virus Database: 468 - Release Date: 27/06/2004

In message , Robert Peffers
writes
"Paul J. Adam" wrote in message
...

No. How many of the design teams for Eurofighter, Harrier, Tornado,
Jaguar et al are based there?
None. your point was supply parts.

My point was being able to support fielded assets.

Have you still not understood the point
that is being made to you?

You keep changing it. One minute you're demanding large armed forces and
threatening nuclear blackmail, then you're claiming to be an
anti-nuclear pacifist?

Yes, there are. Unfortunately, if you think you can support your torpedo
outloads through them, they're dependent on support from BAE SYSTEMS
Waterlooville, which is about as far from Scotland as you can get and
still be part of the British mainland. (Do those depots make their own
spare parts? No, they don't, they depend on the manufacturer)

IDIOT! GO PLAY YOUR SILLY WAR GAMES SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Well, that's a thorough rebuttal.

You fail to understand
what is being said to you and seem determined to set a rediculous scenario.

No, I'm just familiar with the task you're so idly dismissing. How,
precisely, do you 'fairly divide' a single facility, relocate Scotland's
share, and keep both functioning? Does the single AAW TacDev officer
have to work Mondays and Tuesday mornings in Scotland and the rest of
the week at Portsdown?

These are real problems: that you're determined to ignore them reflects
very poorly on your thought processes (or lack thereof)

If Scotland parts from England it is our right to have a fair share of the
assets we have paid for and it is in both countries best interests to deal
with each other for our mutual benefit only an idiot would even dream of any
other scenario.

So why do you keep threatening to nuke London or sell nuclear weapons to
North Korea?

Not exactly the way to improve relations and encourage dialogue, I would
have thought.

I mention that it would be disaserous for England to even
attempt to do other than deal with Scotland as a partner, for that is what
we are according to the treaty of union, and you are set on an all out war
between the two countries.

Mr Peffers, it was you - not I - who suggested auctioning nuclear
weapons off to the highest bidder. Then you manufacture a torrent of
rage when the idiocies in your plan are pointed out (while dodging the
real issues).

Thank God you're not a representative Scotsman.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:23:35 -0400, Peter Kemp wrote:

4-6 fisheries protection vessels, alsae guid for keeping the damn
English away fra the wee oil platferms.

Makes sense.

A few MPAs (again 4-6) for long range patrol, plus C2 of any SAR work,
plus a dozen Merlins for both land and naval work (SAR, troop
transposrt, resupply).

What're MPAs?

If Bonnie auld Scotland did ever split, I see them (if you haven't
guessed I'm not a native Scottish speaker) more as an Ireland (minimal
forces except for peacekeping and EEZ patrol), than a Sweden
(extremely large and competant forces for the size of economy and
population).

That's probably what would happen.

Though bear in mind Sweden spends a lower proportion of GDP on
defense than the UK does. The MoD doesn't seem to be into value for
money. Why do they employ more civil servants than soldiers?

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)