Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.

The man didn't want to fight. End of story.



Arthur Kramer

Art, I am pretty sure that almost non of us of tha era wanted to fight. I am
also sure that few of your generation really wanted to either. But we all
served. I am just as certain that some of your generation were more than
willing to serve in combat but didn't end up there. My dad volunteered for but
was washed out of pilot training because of color blindness. He ended up
spending the war at Laredo TX working on high altitude research for the the
B-29 development.

(ArtKramr) wrote:

Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of this
NG. Congrats.

You're living proof that growing old doesn't necessary mean growing
up.

Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of this
NG. Congrats.

Thanks but I really thought Ed had nearly as many as I did.and he probably has
more over RP6. I think I had 40 or so over Pack 6 and something like 80 over
NVN. Been a long while since I counted.

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/11/2004 9:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

The man didn't want to fight. End of story.



Arthur Kramer

Art, I am pretty sure that almost non of us of tha era wanted to fight. I am
also sure that few of your generation really wanted to either. But we all
served. I am just as certain that some of your generation were more than
willing to serve in combat but didn't end up there. My dad volunteered for
but
was washed out of pilot training because of color blindness. He ended up
spending the war at Laredo TX working on high altitude research for the the
B-29 development.



I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime. And
many of us felt exactly that way back then. It didn't end and I got there. But
I was very young and idealistic back then..But if I had it to do it all over
again, I would do it the same way.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/11/2004 9:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of this
NG. Congrats.

Thanks but I really thought Ed had nearly as many as I did.and he probably
has
more over RP6. I think I had 40 or so over Pack 6 and something like 80 over
NVN. Been a long while since I counted.


I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
done.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

When I clicked the link and scrolled down it shows a box outlined in red that
says:

"I do/do not volunteer for overseas service."

Bush checked "Do not".

Walt


More spin. So why do you think that is important? Probably 75% of the guys in
the ten or so fighter squadrons I was in were non-volunteers.

Walt you are really grasping for straws, hanging on opinions from spinmakers,
and totally out of touch with what went on in the military during the Vietnam
era.

The records of Gore, Bush, Kerry, and the actions of Clinton all seem fishy to
me though I take far less umbrage to Bush's service than I do the otheres
because I know of others who followed the same path as he did conmpletely
within the "system". What matters is what has happened in the last decade. So
far as defense is concerned I see little in Kerry's record that would give me
much comfort in that regard.

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 7/11/2004 9:55 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/11/2004 9:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of
this
NG. Congrats.

Thanks but I really thought Ed had nearly as many as I did.and he probably
has
more over RP6. I think I had 40 or so over Pack 6 and something like 80
over
NVN. Been a long while since I counted.


I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
done.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


Ed's were in Nam. Mine were in the ETO over Germany.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

On 11 Jul 2004 16:55:32 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

Subject: Bush flew fighter jets, but never over VIETNAM.
From: ojunk (Steve Mellenthin)
Date: 7/11/2004 9:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Wow. More missions than me and Ed combined. You are now head warrior of this
NG. Congrats.

Thanks but I really thought Ed had nearly as many as I did.and he probably
has
more over RP6. I think I had 40 or so over Pack 6 and something like 80 over
NVN. Been a long while since I counted.


I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
done.

Steve and I flew together during '72-'73 in the 34th TFS at Korat. I
flew 110 missions (100 over NVN) in the F-105D, then 150 in the F-4E
(50 over NVN.) Steve's got more missions.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

But we all
served. I am just as certain that some of your generation were more than
willing to serve in combat but didn't end up there. My dad volunteered for
but
was washed out of pilot training because of color blindness. He ended up
spending the war at Laredo TX working on high altitude research for the the
B-29 development.



I can't speak for a generation, but in 1942 my greatest fear was that the war
would end before I got there and I would miss the adventure of a lifetime.
And
many of us felt exactly that way back then. It didn't end and I got there.
But
I was very young and idealistic back then..But if I had it to do it all over
again, I would do it the same

I am trying to make the point here that I don't think many of us in the late
60s had an overwhelming desire to go to Vietnam and kill other human beings, a
view that had little to do with willingness to serve in a useful capacity
during those days or with courage. I have seen no evidence that Buch didn't
serve in a useful capacity and honorably despite the efforts of some to
distort. What has been proffered as examples appear to me to be pretty much
unexceptional AF documents of the era. You could probably infer the same from
mine as folks have been from those of GWB in my first four years in the AF.

I think Ed said he had 100 and I flew 50. So you still lead the pack. Well
done.

Thanks but I defer to one Paul Dembrowsky, on whose wing I flew on a six month
deployment to Thailand in 72. He had 479 at the start of the deployment.