Spins, Spiral Dives and Training

It will be important for Soaring pilots to know whether the recent
crashes were from a spinning or a spiraling ship..That most likely can
be determined by the type of impact.
Simply, every pilot should recognize and recover from an incipient
spin. If he or she is not sure, one should be shown in
a Blanik or similar spin happy ships.

A glider in flight should really never come close to a spiral, since
it is approaching red line fast. I feel the reason gliders get into
spirals is not only the lack of spin recognition of the pilot, but
poor flying technique. Yaw string, airspeeds, coordination.

Of course all those problems can happen to a pilot becomming sick,
passing out or similar. I have programmed myself to immidiately pull
the trim all the way back and let go of the controls. Not sure if
that would help, depends on the ship?

soarski

On Jul 3, 7:36*pm, soarski wrote:
It will be important for Soaring pilots to know whether the recent
crashes were from a spinning or a spiraling ship..That most likely can
be determined by the type of impact.
Simply, every pilot should recognize and recover from an incipient
spin. If he or she is not sure, one should be shown in
a Blanik or similar spin happy ships.

A glider in flight should really never come close to a spiral, since
it is approaching red line fast. I feel the reason gliders get into
spirals is not only the lack of spin recognition of the pilot, but
poor flying technique. Yaw string, airspeeds, coordination.

Of course all those problems can happen to a pilot becomming sick,
passing out or similar. I have programmed myself *to immidiately pull
the trim all the way back and let go of the controls. *Not sure if
that would help, depends on the ship?

soarski

The programing myself, I meant If I had the time or the chance, to do
so before
getting incapasitated.

If may, I would like to get off on a bit of a tangent, i.e. the
original subject stated in the title of this thread.

One of the problems that I have observed with students and a few high
time pilots alike is the following: when presented with a spin or a
spiral dive, mis-diagnosing the problem and applying the wrong recovery.
To some who experience these maneuvers infrequently, they appear similar
enough to bring about confusion and as you know, applying the wrong
recovery can get grim.

I believe airspeed, sound and G are the keys with the latter two very
important. Some are so confused by the ground spinning around that they
don't think about looking at the airspeed indicator. But they do seem to
sense if it is relatively quiet or loud and if they are experiencing
more than 1G. A thorough ground briefing on the differences and then
demonstrating both on the same flight really helps. Then follow that
with a lesson where they must make the diagnosis and apply the proper
recovery. This has worked for me. I would enjoy hearing from others who
have thoughts on this very important subject.

Paul
ZZ









8 wrote:
Okay guys, here's your new thread. Please...

Del asks "how well will pilots react if they unexpectedly get into a
spin or a spiral dive? Normally you gird your loins up first before
doing a deliberate spin!"

Answer: this depends on the pilot, of course. By the time you are
gaggle flying, thermaling up off ridges or flying in competition it
damned well better be automatic, reflexive.

The only point to doing deliberate spins by stalling straight ahead
and kicking rudder is to get some sense of how the sailplane behaves
and what it takes to recover from a fully developed spin. It might
also help you develop some sense of spin entry feel, but unintentional
spins normally come from some combination of turning, skidding flight,
gusts, etc. Oh, there's also the famous pilot who transitioned from
15m to std class and early on charged into a gaggle, pulled up,
reached for the "flap" handle and spun out of the gaggle with spoilers
deployed. UH, hUH! But I won't mention any names :-). I love that
story.

What you should practice is realistic spin entries from thermaling
turns and simulated pattern turns gone bad. Do 'em in all aircraft
configurations. In flapped ships the behavior changes quite a lot.
If you are fooling with CG location, check that out too. Your
responses can and should become fast and accurate. You should do this
until you aren't "girding your loins", you aren't tense. No panic.
Aircraft departs controlled flight: so what, you deal with it, get it
back.

regards,

Evan Ludeman / T8

In message
,
soarski writes
snip

A glider in flight should really never come close to a spiral, since
it is approaching red line fast. I feel the reason gliders get into
spirals is not only the lack of spin recognition of the pilot, but
poor flying technique. Yaw string, airspeeds, coordination.

You could say exactly the same thing about spins.


Of course all those problems can happen to a pilot becomming sick,
passing out or similar. I have programmed myself to immidiately pull
the trim all the way back and let go of the controls. Not sure if
that would help, depends on the ship?

soarski

I suspect you are being very optimistic that you could do anything to
avert disaster. You might pass out, or you might be in so much pain
that you are totally incapacitated. I can't see what the point of
trimming all the way back is, either.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

On Jul 4, 12:32*pm, n7ly wrote:
I've experienced such episodes and no longer will "explore"
that part of a flight envelope. An appropriate phrase for such
activity is "practice bleeding".

Hey at least we can do RTSL aborts ok!

On Jul 4, 7:06*pm, Surfer! wrote:
I suspect you are being very optimistic that you could do anything to
avert disaster. *You might pass out, or you might be in so much pain
that you are totally incapacitated. *I can't see what the point of
trimming all the way back is, either.

If you trim well back and add as much drag as possible using
airbrakes, wheel down etc and get off the controls then you will
probably get a fairly stable and low speed "benign spiral" which may
even be survivable on contact with the ground depending on what you
hit.

Try it in your own ship at altitude and find out.

I have already been flamed once for bringing up this subject in the
original Parowan accident thread, as being irrelevant to highly
experienced competition pilots!

However for those of them who are not also instructors, that experience
consists of many hundreds or thousands of hours of either flying straight
or circling in thermals! How well would they cope in the event of a sudden
and unexpected upset?

It is important to be able to differentiate between a spin and a spiral
dive because the recovery actions are quite different.

In a spin, the nose will often go well down, despite the fact you are
stalled, the ground will rotate in front of you, and there will be very
little build up of g. The ASI is likely to totally misread due to the
amount of yaw present; it may even go back though zero and show a very
high reading.

In a spiral dive, the nose may remain fairly well up, despite the fact you
are not stalled, and airspeed and g will build up rapidly and continue to
do so. In many ways spiral dives are more dangerous as you risk going
through Vne and breaking up the glider. Spins in themselves are not
dangerous at all, at least as long as you recover before hitting the
deck.

Just a quick reminder of the standard recovery actions:

Spin:

1) Centralise the ailerons
2) Apply full outspin rudder
3) Move the stick steadily and progressively forward until the spin stops
4) Centralise the rudder and ease out of the dive

Spiral dive:

1) Keep the stick fairly well back and use the controls normally to reduce
the angle of bank - a spiral dive is just a very overbanked turn.

IMHO spins and spiral dives should be a part of periodic check flights.

Derek Copeland (UK Gliding Instructor)



At 04:15 04 July 2009, ZZ wrote:
If may, I would like to get off on a bit of a tangent, i.e. the
original subject stated in the title of this thread.

One of the problems that I have observed with students and a few high
time pilots alike is the following: when presented with a spin or a
spiral dive, mis-diagnosing the problem and applying the wrong recovery.

To some who experience these maneuvers infrequently, they appear similar

enough to bring about confusion and as you know, applying the wrong
recovery can get grim.

I believe airspeed, sound and G are the keys with the latter two very
important. Some are so confused by the ground spinning around that they
don't think about looking at the airspeed indicator. But they do seem to

sense if it is relatively quiet or loud and if they are experiencing
more than 1G. A thorough ground briefing on the differences and then
demonstrating both on the same flight really helps. Then follow that
with a lesson where they must make the diagnosis and apply the proper
recovery. This has worked for me. I would enjoy hearing from others who
have thoughts on this very important subject.

Paul
ZZ









8 wrote:
Okay guys, here's your new thread. Please...

Del asks "how well will pilots react if they unexpectedly get into a
spin or a spiral dive? Normally you gird your loins up first before
doing a deliberate spin!"

Answer: this depends on the pilot, of course. By the time you are
gaggle flying, thermaling up off ridges or flying in competition it
damned well better be automatic, reflexive.

The only point to doing deliberate spins by stalling straight ahead
and kicking rudder is to get some sense of how the sailplane behaves
and what it takes to recover from a fully developed spin. It might
also help you develop some sense of spin entry feel, but unintentional
spins normally come from some combination of turning, skidding flight,
gusts, etc. Oh, there's also the famous pilot who transitioned from
15m to std class and early on charged into a gaggle, pulled up,
reached for the "flap" handle and spun out of the gaggle with
spoilers
deployed. UH, hUH! But I won't mention any names :-). I love that
story.

What you should practice is realistic spin entries from thermaling
turns and simulated pattern turns gone bad. Do 'em in all aircraft
configurations. In flapped ships the behavior changes quite a lot.
If you are fooling with CG location, check that out too. Your
responses can and should become fast and accurate. You should do this
until you aren't "girding your loins", you aren't tense. No
panic.
Aircraft departs controlled flight: so what, you deal with it, get it
back.

regards,

Evan Ludeman / T8

ZZ wrote:

One of the problems that I have observed with students and a few high
time pilots alike is the following: when presented with a spin or a
spiral dive, mis-diagnosing the problem and applying the wrong recovery.
To some who experience these maneuvers infrequently, they appear similar

I was still a fairly unexperienced pilot when I received my primary
aerobatics training. My third or so spin (which means that I was really
unexperieced) changed unexpectedly into a spiral dive after one rotation
or so, something I had never experienced before. I needed about half a
second to recognize the situation and apply the correct controls. Spin
and spiral dive feel completely different.

While I agree that practice recovering from "realistic entry" spins
and/or spiral dives is highly desirable, there are real problems with
trying to do so.

For example, my LS8-18 POH specifically states "Aerobatic flight not
approved". My club's Grob 103s are approved for spins, but the club
insurance policy prohibits doing them. There is one nearby commercial
operator who offers an introductory aerobatics course using a Blanik
L-13AC, but as he wants to get out of the flying business that option
won't be available much longer.

-John

For those of you who think spins can only be entered from almost straight
flight in a nose height attitude with a bootful of rudder, have a look at
the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xCct8cDtyk

This was an attempted downwind landing after a winch launch cable break at
80 metres (260ft). Note that the glider is never in a nose high attitude.
The pilot may have tried to rudder it round the low final turn, you can't
really tell from the quality of the video, but there was a reasonable
amount of bank on. What finally seems to have triggered the spin was
opening the airbrakes half way round the final turn.

Note also the amount of of rotational energy stored up once the spin
developed, with the glider continuing to rotate even after it crashed into
the ground. Reducing the rotation rate is the first action in recovering
from a fully developed spin, i.e. full outspin rudder.

At the wing drop or incipient stage, it is only necessary to move the
stick forward to unstall the wings and prevent a full spin from
developing. This will cost the minimum amount of height. The full spin
recovery at this point may actually cause a flick in the opposite
direction as well as delaying the recovery. So it's basically move the
stick forward, maybe using the rudder as well to minimise any build up of
yaw, and then sort out the bank and attitude by using the controls
normally once the airflow is re-attached to the wings.

Derek Copeland