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#41
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Peter Duniho wrote: Well, one problem is that the assertion that turbines are more reliable is, in my opinion, unproved. A well-maintained piston engine can be VERY reliable, while a poorly maintained turbine might not last very long at all. It's hard to know for sure, because most turbines are operated in an environment where there are strict maintenance standards. Those standards applied to piston engines might well result equally reliable piston engines. Perhaps a study of the durability of engines used for things like APUs, rather than aircraft powerplants would be informative. Such engines, both piston and turbine, are likely to be only moderately well maintained. George Patterson If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have been looking for it. |
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#43
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Well, the Rabbit I had was built with exactly the same block, pistons, crank, etc, as the gas version. The basicly just slapped a shallower head on the thing to increase the compression ratio. I could have sworn the Rabbit Diesel had a way different engine, but I could be wrong. The debacle I'm talking about was Chevey's (?) attempt to power pickups with a gas engine converted to diesel by basically the same method. Not pickups AFAIK; station wagons and maybe sedans. This was Roger Smith at his finest. A friend bought one with a dead@55000 mile engine. It was an stock gas block; no where NEAR beefy enough. The blowby was so bad, the engine soiled itself at every seal; he'd get 250 miles to the quart; all leakage. At least it didn't rust! It had a one-of-kind starter and flywheel. The distributor was replaced with a vacuum pump to drive the HVAC door flaps. It had dual batteries, designed wrong. The brakes were run off the PS pump, so when the engine stalled, stop NOW. He put in a gas 350 and drove it for 10 years more. -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 |
#44
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In rec.aviation.owning David Lesher wrote:
Well, the Rabbit I had was built with exactly the same block, pistons, crank, etc, as the gas version. The basicly just slapped a shallower head on the thing to increase the compression ratio. I could have sworn the Rabbit Diesel had a way different engine, but I could be wrong. The debacle I'm talking about was Chevey's (?) attempt to power pickups with a gas engine converted to diesel by basically the same method. Not pickups AFAIK; station wagons and maybe sedans. This was Roger Smith at his finest. A friend bought one with a dead@55000 mile engine. It was an stock gas block; no where NEAR beefy enough. The blowby was so bad, the engine soiled itself at every seal; he'd get 250 miles to the quart; all leakage. At least it didn't rust! It had a one-of-kind starter and flywheel. The distributor was replaced with a vacuum pump to drive the HVAC door flaps. It had dual batteries, designed wrong. The brakes were run off the PS pump, so when the engine stalled, stop NOW. He put in a gas 350 and drove it for 10 years more. -- A host is a host from coast to & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 There were pickups. A friend bought one new and had the engine blow at about 40k miles. Thanks to California smog laws, he found his choices were replace it with another new diesel (big bucks) or get an old gas engine and convert it to propane and try to recover some of the investment. This was way before 50k warranties. -- Jim Pennino Remove -spam-sux to reply. |
#45
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#46
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#47
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"Newps" wrote in message ... wrote: If gelling of Jet-A were a problem, airliners would be falling out of the sky on a regular basis. It is a problem. It is solved by heating the fuel. .... and since hydraulic fluid needs cooling they locate the hyd.cooling coils inside the fuel tank(s). That helps solve two problems. |
#48
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Excerpted from other posts.......
Any talk about Jet-A jelling sounds....bogus.. If gelling of Jet-A were a problem, airliners would be falling out of the sky on a regular basis. It is a problem. It is solved by heating the fuel. It is a problem on long flights at high altitudes and high latitudes. The fuel filters on the Boeings that I flew were heated to prevent the screens from "waxing" over. The fuel itself was not heated. The filters were heated with hot engine bleed air and heated for one minute every thirty minutes when the fuel temperature dropped below zero degrees celsius. At PanAm, we had three procedures for dealing with extremely low temperatures across the North Atlantic. 1. Re-route to a more southernly (warmer) route. 2. Reduce altitude to a warmer OAT. 3. Increase speed for a greater friction effect on the tanks. At around M.80, the Ram Air Temperature is about thirty degrees higher than the True Air Temperature. All of these required extra fuel of course and we depended on the Dispatcher providing a good Temp Aloft forecast. Bob Moore ATP B-707 B-727 PanAm (retired) |
#49
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Aha,
But much of the cost is due to changing components other than the engine. If you had a glass cockpit, and fuel system that were compatible to start with, then all you would need to change was the engine, mount, prop, sending units, and software. That would seem to be less than what the europeans are giong through to put the Theilert in a skyhawk. wrote in message ... In rec.aviation.owning Mike Rapoport wrote: wrote in message ... In rec.aviation.owning Mike Rapoport wrote: The Caravan has a 940hp engine flat rated to 675hp. Turbines are typically flat rated so that the engine can make rated power to reasonable altitudes and temperatures without having to design the gearbox for the full thermodynamic horsepower. To keep the comparison with piston engines apples to apples you need to use thermodynamic ratings. http://www.pwc.ca/en/3_0/3_0http://w.../3_0_2_1_2.asp OK, that explains that. To put some numbers on things, the engines in my MU-2 have a specific fuel consumption of .55lb/hp/hr and a piston engine is about .45 and diesels can be under .40. Huge (ship) diesels can be under .30. Compare your model aircraft engines with the TFE731-60 used on the Falcon 900EX which uses .405lb/lb thrust/hr Aha, numbers! So if one assumes the motivation to switch from a piston to a turbine is the price of gas is roughly twice Jet-A, the crossover point would be a turbine that did about .8 (to allow for the weight difference in the fuels). Any idea how small (in appropriate terms of hp) current technology can make a turbine with that consumption? -- Jim Pennino That would be the economic crossover point if the engines cost the same. Of course a plane that needed twice the fuel (in lbs) to achieve the same performance wouldn't have much useful load or range. Dropping a diesel in an airplane costs a bunch. The justification is the cost is recovered in lowered fuel costs. Your second point is certainly valid though and a minor problem with the diesels according to the AVweb article on them. -- Jim Pennino Remove -spam-sux to reply. |
#50
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If you really wanted to know...
You could likely compare figures derived from different models of armored fighting vehicles. Also, military aircraft used to have a mix a long time ago. "Peter Duniho" wrote in message ... "Roy Smith" wrote in message ... It occurs to me that compared to a piston engine, the turbine is 1) more expensive, and 2) more reliable. But, why are those things true? Looking at it another way, is there some inherent reason why piston engines are cheaper to produce? Is there also some inherent reason why they're less reliable? I believe that there are at least two factors: A turbine needs to be constructed out of more expensive materials, because of higher temperatures involved in the operation of the engine, and it needs to be constructed to higher tolerances, because it's very sensitive to imbalances. These contribute to cost. On the other hand, a turbine has no parts that reverse direction, while a piston engine has many such parts. So the turbine suffers less stress, when constructed correctly, than a piston engine does. It's also "simpler", in the sense that the engine doesn't need as many moving parts to accomplish the same thing. These contribute to reliability. The above ignores higher maintenance costs, which are probably related to several factors, including cost of parts, cost of training for a mechanic, and stricter maintenance guidelines (meaning maintenance happens more often and is more thorough). If I were to give you the $/HP budget a turbine designer has to work with, would you be able to design a piston engine that was as reliable as a turbine? Well, one problem is that the assertion that turbines are more reliable is, in my opinion, unproved. A well-maintained piston engine can be VERY reliable, while a poorly maintained turbine might not last very long at all. It's hard to know for sure, because most turbines are operated in an environment where there are strict maintenance standards. Those standards applied to piston engines might well result equally reliable piston engines. I think one interesting way to address your question is to look at what causes engine failures. In piston engines, it's usually some secondary component, such as fuel delivery or oil circulation. When it's a primary component, often it's something that's either suffered from poor operation techniques (valves and pistons, for example) or a manufacturing defect (crankshafts). Turbines do suffer from manufacturing defects (if I recall, there was an uncontained failure in the 90's on some rear-engine jet -- 727, DC-9 or something like that -- where the blade failure was due to some metallurgical problem). But they have stricter maintenance regimes (which more often will catch problems with secondary components), and perhaps more importantly, they have stricter operating standards and instrumentation to monitor operation (for example, overtemp operation is strictly monitored and limits specified, and if those limits are exceeded, the engine is automatically up for inspection and/or repair). Which is a long way of saying that I think it's entirely possible that if you spent as much on a piston engine as you might spend on a turbine, and followed similar practices with respect to operation and maintenance, you could achieve similar reliability rates. Pete |
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