Repercussions for people outside New Orleans

"John T" wrote in message
...
Mike Rapoport wrote:

There is more refining capacity offline that production capacity.
Releasing crude from the SPR will do nothing.

Percentage-wise, that is correct. However, the SPR oil will go to
refineries (mostly in the Midwest as I understand it) that are
streamlining gasoline production (thanks to the EPA relaxing regional
formula restrictions). This will help reduce or eliminate shortages.

Even if that's not the case, releasing the SPR signaled the market the
government will Do Something to settle oil futures prices.

Even if the effect of SPR oil on actual short-term fuel supplies ends up
being minimal, releasing the oil is the right thing to do. This is the
very type of emergency it should be used for (even if it was a different
type of emergency that spawned its creation).

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
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____________________



If the SPR oil goes to refineries in the midwest (where the supply of crude
is unaffected) how will that really help? I agree that announcing the
availiiblity of SPR oil has some marginal calming effect on the markets in
the immediate term, but it is not going to affect the supply of gasoline in
any meaningful way.

Mike
MU-2

"john smith" wrote in message
. ..
My wife came home from work yesterday and told me that a very large supply
of gasoline the company she works for has been holding in reserve for
corporate operations has been confiscated by the federal government.

Could we have some details on this statement like who your wife works for?
If not this is the kind of fear mongering that will make things go from bad
to worse.

Mike Rapoport wrote:

If the SPR oil goes to refineries in the midwest (where the supply of
crude is unaffected) how will that really help?

It will help ensure the supply of crude (that may have been coming from Gulf
sources/locations) is not interrupted.

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________

Actually if you owned the gasoline or worked for the people who owned it,
you would sell it to those who were willing to pay the most for it. You
would do this because you would know that there is somebody somewhere on
the planet that would be willing to sell to the US buyers for a higher
price and the only one hurt by your action would be you or those you
represent. The reality is that the worldwide supply of gasoline is now
reduced from what it was last week and therefore gasoline is worth more.
The price will rise until demand is reduced to equal supply. It is an
inescapable fact.

No one argues that it is supply and demand at work. It always is.

My point is that our "supply" side has been artificially restricted by
onerous environmental laws. These laws are so complex and expensive to
interpret that no one has built a new refinery in the U.S. since their
inception.

Thus, we find ourselves in the pickle we're in. One hurricane, and we're
*all* dead, economically.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay Honeck wrote:
The price of refined fuel has gone up because of the laws of supply and
demand - there is extra demand as people try to hoard, and restricted
supply because refineries are offline. It's just the free market you're
so enthusiastic about operating in its normal manner.

Anyone who thinks this is the "Free Market" at work clearly hasn't looked
closely at the issues.

Jay. I'm as big a right-winger as anybody here, but you're talking
candyland stuff here.

Let's say you're a gas station in Atlanta and your supplier just told
you, "that gas in your tanks is all you're going to have for the next
15 days," and you normally get a delivery every 3 days. What do you do?
You jack the price up.

If you have to drive to New Orleans to look for your family, you'll pay
the $6/gallon and bitch, but at least you could buy gas. At $3/gal,
everybody will come and fill their tanks and leave them parked in their
driveways. Meanwhile, every station has run dry "just in case."
Meanwhile the guys who *need* a tank of gas can't get it at any price.
At $6/gal, you leave your tank half-full and decide whether you really
need to drive. This is exactly the free market at work, allocating
supply to the people who want (need) it the most.

Yes, in the very short term, prices shoot up when supply is diminished.
However, between regulation and taxation, there is practically nothing
"free" about the oil/gas market, from supply, through refining, to end-user
sales.

The only twig of truth you have to stand on here is OPEC, and they're
not really a factor at this point. No one's witholding significant
supply right now. As for shipping, refining, and sales, it's about as
free a market as you can get. There are environmental regs on refining
but they are far from decisive. One of the main reasons we haven't
built new refineries is that it's more economically efficient to
upgrade an existing one where you don't have to build everything from
scratch, not to mention not needing double the amount of labor to
operate it.

And what is regulated about end-user sales? That market is so
competitive that most gas stations sell the stuff at break-even if not
a slight loss. They make money on milk and Marlboros.

-cwk.

"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
On 2005-09-01, Chris wrote:
Personally I would shut them out and say if you were not buying from us
before go away, and leave the US to rot this time but money always wins
out.

My, aren't you bitter.
Its not bitterness at all, perhaps this is the time for the US public to get
a wake up call an see that how they carry on is not sustainable. in terms of
motoring,
when most of us have gone to the effort of having cars with good economy it
just seems stupid to let the resource go where there is tremendous waste.
Maybe if they had to do less driving , (I know, its a sacrifice,) then the
fuel available would go a lot further.

"Darrel Toepfer" wrote in message
...
Chris wrote:

Personally I would shut them out and say if you were not buying from us
before go away, and leave the US to rot this time but money always wins
out.

Your existance kinda makes me sorry about my german heritage...

Any chance I could drop by for a visit, if I do happen to travel Europe
next year?

Us Gasoline supply has been cut by a third. My point is let the people in
the US reduce their consumption by a third. Price stays down, no one else
gets f****d up. As has been said in the thread, this was a problem waiting
to happen, the politicians knew about it, the local authorities new about it
and business knew about it but they ignored it. They will probably spend
more money sorting out the mess than it would have cost to put in proper
preventative measures.

at the end of the day a little sort term sacrifice should be not big deal
and if the public are ****ed off about it take it up with their politicians.

Drifting across to the European fuel markets throwing big dollars to grab
all the fuel will not solve the basic problem.

Why the hell should I to pay more for my fuel because of the ineptitude of
the US authorities.

Walking a bit more might even sort the fat *******s out too.

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"Darrel Toepfer" wrote in message
...
Chris wrote:

Personally I would shut them out and say if you were not buying from us
before go away, and leave the US to rot this time but money always wins
out.

Your existance kinda makes me sorry about my german heritage...

Any chance I could drop by for a visit, if I do happen to travel Europe
next year?

Us Gasoline supply has been cut by a third. My point is let the people in
the US reduce their consumption by a third. Price stays down, no one else
gets f****d up. As has been said in the thread, this was a problem waiting
to happen, the politicians knew about it, the local authorities new about
it and business knew about it but they ignored it. They will probably
spend more money sorting out the mess than it would have cost to put in
proper preventative measures.

at the end of the day a little sort term sacrifice should be not big deal
and if the public are ****ed off about it take it up with their
politicians.

Drifting across to the European fuel markets throwing big dollars to grab
all the fuel will not solve the basic problem.

Why the hell should I to pay more for my fuel because of the ineptitude of
the US authorities.

Walking a bit more might even sort the fat *******s out too.

You need to remember Germany and the rest of the EU states are smaller than
many of our states and we have 50 of them and you can drive to 49 of them.
Some of the EU states are smaller than some of our counties. So yea, we
drive more than you. But guess what. Had the Red Army every come screaming
through the Fulda Gap we would have been burning our gas to save you ass and
you guys loved our ass when that was hanging over your head.

In article .com,
wrote:
The only twig of truth you have to stand on here is OPEC, and they're
not really a factor at this point. No one's witholding significant
supply right now. As for shipping, refining, and sales, it's about as
free a market as you can get. There are environmental regs on refining
but they are far from decisive. One of the main reasons we haven't
built new refineries is that it's more economically efficient to
upgrade an existing one where you don't have to build everything from
scratch, not to mention not needing double the amount of labor to
operate it.

Right now, as I understand it, there are two big problems with supply:
refinery capacity and delivery. Refinery capacity has been a growing
problem for some time, and the environmental laws requiring special
blends for certain parts of the country compound this capacity problem.

Delivery is a largely new problem spawned by the destruction of the
hurricane.

The bottom line is that environmental laws have a fairly substantial
financial impact on all industry, and the petroleum industry in
particular. New refineries could be built, but it would be so expensive
to build and operate them in compliance with environmental laws that it
would not be worth it.

On top of all of the other costs, most areas pay AT LEAST 50 cents per
gallon in state and federal consumer taxes. Suspension of these taxes
would help to ease gas prices, but those crafty politicians know that if
the gas taxes are suspended, it will be nearly impossible to bring them
back, at least to their current levels. And holy cow if government
might have to cut back on spending and learn to be more efficient.

On another note, anyone who lives near the ocean in a city that's 18
feet below sea level is living on borrowed time until the next disaster.
If businesses were refused insurance and government aid for disasters
such as this, and the poor were forced to work for a living, no one (or
very few) would live in areas like New Orleans because the financial
risk would be too great. Since the government swoops in to cover much
of the financial loss, there's less at risk for the individual, and
lives are needlessly lost.


JKG

Us Gasoline supply has been cut by a third. My point is let the people in
the US reduce their consumption by a third. Price stays down, no one else
gets f****d up. As has been said in the thread, this was a problem waiting
to happen, the politicians knew about it, the local authorities new about
it and business knew about it but they ignored it.

Right, but what you fail to realize is that this is a SELF-IMPOSED disaster,
by well-meaning Americans who thought that they were helping the world by
making it impossible for oil companies to build any new refineries.

The hurricane was inevitable; the consequences were not.

I suspect, given what you're saying, that you probably agreed with their
environmental approach. You probably cheered as, one by one, more and more
restrictive U.S. laws were passed, making it harder and harder for suppliers
to refine crude oil into gasoline. Until now.

Now that their short-sightedness is hurting everyone, badly -- worldwide --
maybe you'll realize just how much harm environmental extremists have done.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"