Fly Boy ?????

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 10/21/03 10:12 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

ArtKramr wrote:

Everything you say is true and I can't argue with any of it. But every time
I
hear of where only a pilot survived and anenire crew was lost, I can't help
but
think back.But maybe when one is aircrew it means a lot more than if one
never
set foot in a plane or flew a mission. You can understand that can't you?

I suppose such a thought could linger in one's mind.

I know guilt at being a lone survivor of terrible events can sometimes drive
a person to suicide. "Why did I survive when everyone around me died?"

I remember reading "recent" (1980's) analysis of evidence from the Little
Big Horn battle site in Montana after a prairie fire cleared the area, that
indicated one soldier *almost* escaped being killed along with Custer and
his command.

Fragments of his body and that of his horse, were found quite a distance
away from the main battle site.

Had he survived, can you imagine the insinuations that fellow would have had
to endure for the remainder of his life, justly or not?


SMH


Yes.There are always questions.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Cub Driver
Date: 10/22/03 3:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


Now I have no axe to grind one way or the other but this seems
a little harsh.

Yes, after all these years, I flushed Art down the toilet as a result
of this thread. He took 64 messages with him! And I clean out my
message software every day.

r.a.m. will certainly be easier to read from now on.

all the best -- Dan Ford


Terriible loss for me. I don't know if I can ever survive so severe a tragedy.
(yawn)

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Cub Driver wrote:

Yes, after all these years, I flushed Art down the toilet as a result
of this thread. He took 64 messages with him! And I clean out my
message software every day.

r.a.m. will certainly be easier to read from now on.

To each his own, but I think you'll be missing some good stuff by not
reading Art.

Always need to read him in context and in character, which should be
well known to all here by now.

Although he can be awfully harsh at times (e.g. this thread), I see it
as a time portal on attitudes that seem to have been largely replaced in
modern American society.

With Art, you flew what you had, even if it wasn't the best, or someone
somewhere was screwing up, or you weren't feeling good, or you were
experiencing mental weakness. Just do the job and stop complaining.
"Collateral damage"? Tough luck! Life is cruel!

Not that the military is limp kneed now days, but there seems to be a
lack of endurance for the task. Always someone at fault for something
not being perfect. Perhaps it was always so, but is now done more openly.

I saw some soldiers in Iraq complaining about being stuck there too
long. One claimed during an ABC interview that the Army "had lied to
him". He wasn't going to reup as a result.

For me, Art is a relict of a time when a people were united to do a
tough and dirty job, and just simply went to it. No excuses, no belly
aching, no one else's fault, and extremely unforgiving to anyone who
wasn't towing the line.

Overall, I think it is fortunate for the nation that we have had people
with such attitudes. Just seems so anachronistic now days, and certainly
very harsh at times.

I think r.a.m would lose a lot if Art flew off somewhere else and never
posted here again.


SMH

From: Cub Driver look

Mr. West refers to grenades as "hand
bombs", and it's not because he doesn't know better. He was a platoon
leader in Vietnam. I assume he decided to make things easier for the
modern reader.

Or his editor did. On a book I am working on in every instance where I wrote
"radial" engine, some genius changed it to "circular."


Chris Mark

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 10/22/03 7:49 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

Cub Driver wrote:

Yes, after all these years, I flushed Art down the toilet as a result
of this thread. He took 64 messages with him! And I clean out my
message software every day.

r.a.m. will certainly be easier to read from now on.

To each his own, but I think you'll be missing some good stuff by not
reading Art.

Always need to read him in context and in character, which should be
well known to all here by now.

Although he can be awfully harsh at times (e.g. this thread), I see it
as a time portal on attitudes that seem to have been largely replaced in
modern American society.

With Art, you flew what you had, even if it wasn't the best, or someone
somewhere was screwing up, or you weren't feeling good, or you were
experiencing mental weakness. Just do the job and stop complaining.
"Collateral damage"? Tough luck! Life is cruel!

Not that the military is limp kneed now days, but there seems to be a
lack of endurance for the task. Always someone at fault for something
not being perfect. Perhaps it was always so, but is now done more openly.

I saw some soldiers in Iraq complaining about being stuck there too
long. One claimed during an ABC interview that the Army "had lied to
him". He wasn't going to reup as a result.

For me, Art is a relict of a time when a people were united to do a
tough and dirty job, and just simply went to it. No excuses, no belly
aching, no one else's fault, and extremely unforgiving to anyone who
wasn't towing the line.

Overall, I think it is fortunate for the nation that we have had people
with such attitudes. Just seems so anachronistic now days, and certainly
very harsh at times.

I think r.a.m would lose a lot if Art flew off somewhere else and never
posted here again.


SMH


Thanks for the kind words. It is nice to be appreciated which doesn't happen
often. But you are right, those were days of hard discipline, hard tasks to be
done and no excuses were accepted. Don't ask for sympathy or pity because
there was none available. Wheb it was announced that you were going back to the
Rhur Valley for the 3rd straight time after heavy l.osses previously you just
girtted your teeth and kept your mouth shut .If you tried to complain to
another guy chances are he would turn his back on you and walk away. It's bad
luck to talk about stuff like that before a mission. But I am fully aware that
very frew on ntyhis NG havce any iodea of the relaities then. And I make
allowances. What I will never do is hold back what I see to be the truth
regardless of how politically correct this NG gets..There is always the
killfile for anyone who doesn't like it.
Thanks again for the kind words. I appreciate it. One further comment. When a
crew has to hit the silk, the pilot is not the first to go, he is always the
last to go. Thus the questions.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Stephen Harding wrote:

ArtKramr wrote:


Let me tell you a story about a long forgotten incident in WW II. It is
one of those things that have never been discussed on this NG. There was
a famous footblall player, a famous All American who became a B-17
pilot. His plane was severely damaged by flack and he bailed out and
survived. But not a single one of hsd crew did. There were accusations
that he lost his nerve and bailed before his crew could get out. And
they all died because of his cowardice.

Noithing was ever proven and he was not prosecuted. But there was
always that lingering doubt. And this haunted him all his life. Whenever
I hear of a pilot that made it out, but the crew were all lost, it
brings back the memory of that WW II incident. And there many of us who
will never forget it.

Surely there were many aircraft with two or more crew where only one got
out during all of WWII, PTO, CBI, ETO, MTO!

I should point out that GWHB was not the only member of his crew who
bailed out. He was merely the only survivor. (There were two bailouts
reported but only one "good chute")

The Avenger was noted for being a difficult plane to bail out of,
especially for the turret gunner & radioman, neither of whom had room to
wear their chutes while at their duty station. There has been
speculation that GHWB would have been better off ditching, as the
Avenger was a great floater (snarky comment - and he'd done it twice
before), but we'll never know whether or not the damage given to his
plane made that impossible.

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

One further comment. When a
crew has to hit the silk, the pilot is not the first to go, he is always the
last to go. Thus the questions.


Agree - and for many years, the question about Bush's crew bothered me a lot.
The book addresses what happened and Bush's 'survivor guilt', but I agree, if
the pilot returns and none of his crew does, its a problem. I know of a
Mosquito Nav that discovered he was in an unpiloted a/c after his chicken****
pilot had bailed out on him after a nearby flak explosion. The Nav eventually
made it out and walked out of Luftgau 17B some months later. Upon returning to
the UK for debrief, he was surprised to pass his "pilot" in the hall en route
to the inquest - the pilot saw him and bolted, bleating, "but I thought you
were dead!!" I'd have hunted McCallum down and shot him, personally. LMF my
ass, this guy was a coward down to his cells. Opposite is when another Mossie
took a terminal hit at 33,000' and the escape hatch jammed. The pilot stayed
in down to 6 grand, waiting on the Nav to escape and only at that point did he
direct the Nav to follow him out the top hatch (the pilot had to be out of his
seat for the Nav to use his overhead hatch). In that case, the pilot perished,
while his Nav hit the ground after two swings in his 'chute.

I do agree - if your crew doesn't make it back, the pilot generally shouldn't
either.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

"Cub Driver" wrote in message
...

snip
Bush 41 is not the albatross that many think. The media tell you that
he lost the election (a close one) because of a recession and a war
that turned out badly (in that Saddam remained in power). What they do
not tell you is that Ross Perot got 15 percent of the popular vote.
Where would those votes have gone if Perot had not been in the race?
And do you see a Perot on the horizon today?

The Democratic Primary is a quagmire.

I rather doubt Bush 41 was the youngest USN pilot of WWII, though he
was certainly just a boy. No doubt there were many young men who lied
about their ages and who became pilots.

A lucky fellow, either way.

ubject: Fly Boy ?????
From: (Marc Reeve)
Date: 10/22/03 11:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:


There has been
speculation that GHWB would have been better off ditching, as the
Avenger was a great floater (snarky comment - and he'd done it twice
before), but we'll never know whether or not the damage given to his
plane made that impossible.

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve


That's true. We will never know.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly Boy ?????
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 10/22/03 11:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

One further comment. When a
crew has to hit the silk, the pilot is not the first to go, he is always the
last to go. Thus the questions.


Agree - and for many years, the question about Bush's crew bothered me a lot.

The book addresses what happened and Bush's 'survivor guilt', but I agree, if
the pilot returns and none of his crew does, its a problem. I know of a
Mosquito Nav that discovered he was in an unpiloted a/c after his chicken****
pilot had bailed out on him after a nearby flak explosion. The Nav
eventually
made it out and walked out of Luftgau 17B some months later. Upon returning
to
the UK for debrief, he was surprised to pass his "pilot" in the hall en route
to the inquest - the pilot saw him and bolted, bleating, "but I thought you
were dead!!" I'd have hunted McCallum down and shot him, personally. LMF my
ass, this guy was a coward down to his cells. Opposite is when another
Mossie
took a terminal hit at 33,000' and the escape hatch jammed. The pilot stayed
in down to 6 grand, waiting on the Nav to escape and only at that point did
he
direct the Nav to follow him out the top hatch (the pilot had to be out of
his
seat for the Nav to use his overhead hatch). In that case, the pilot
perished,
while his Nav hit the ground after two swings in his 'chute.

I do agree - if your crew doesn't make it back, the pilot generally shouldn't
either.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."


Anyone with combat experience is familiar with the pilot goes last tradition.
Once you hear that the pilot suivived but the crew was lost a few hundred
thousand aircrew all get their suspicions aroused. It is the normal natural
response for those with combat experience. Only inexperienced wannabees would
look at it any other way.
..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer