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#41
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What would you buy with a 50k budget?
On Sun, 18 May 2008 15:34:28 -0700, Bob Fry
wrote: The vast majority of people do not want advice even when they ask for it. They want to be affirmed with a decision already made. You've decided to quit. But you don't want the burden of that decision so you're placing it on this ng, on price, cost, your wife, your boat, whatever. Hmmmm.....without my wife I would not be in a position to even entertain the thought of owning an airplane. Even the idea of searching online to gain insight into the financial feasibility of such an endeavor would have been ludicrous. But the information I've gleamed recently has shown what options are available and what path to take. For now, she comes first because it's all about compromise. Thanks for your wisdom and for the advice, opinions and the sharing of experience by all of those who have posted in response to my question. |
#42
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What would you buy with a 50k budget?
Newps wrote:
Right, I wouldn't touch an A model(1949) with a 10 foot pole. Stick to the late 50's or newer like I said and you get at least an IO-470 and no prop issues. Same basic engine and prop that's in a 182. Just to add a few more tedious details... The H model came out in '57 with an odd O-470-G (I'm not sure its used in airframe) that was carbed. The J model came out in '58 with a more common injected IO-470-C. So how much can you spend on a J model Bonanza? I dunno for sure, as I don't pay too much attention generally. However, I did a 2 minute glance around the 'net and the cheapest asking price I could find was $55,000. Given the current market, one could probably could find something cheaper, but somehow I don't think it would be a lot cheaper. Besides the very early models (35,A35,B35) are the best flying Bonanzas. I know because Old Bob told me so ;-) (its an inside joke). -- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Boise, ID |
#43
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What would you buy with a 50k budget?
Sorry post posting proof-reading: Frank Stutzman wrote: The H model came out in '57 with an odd O-470-G (I'm not sure its used in airframe) that was carbed. The J model came out in '58 with a more common injected IO-470-C. Should read: The H model came out in '57 with an odd O-470-G (I'm not sure its used in ANOTHER airframe) that was carbed. The J model came out in '58 with a more common injected IO-470-C. -- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Boise, ID |
#44
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What would you buy with a 50k budget?
RST Engineering wrote: This is a good time to buy, the airplane market being somewhat depressed. Whatever you buy, you need to be sure that it is either STCd or can be STCd for autogas. Believe what you will, the world has exactly ONE supplier for a critical component of 100/100LL. The ethanol thing will shake itself out as the world braces for a sharp increase in the price of dinogas. There will be a solution. THere always has been. Necessity, as somebody noted, is a mother. Skyhawk or Cherokee, whichever suits your fancy. Parts are a little easier to get for the 172; the PA28 is a little roomier. Buy the airplane in the WINTER. Summer prices are 10-20% higher. You need two critical things right off the crack of the bat. One is an A&P-IA that is a mean son of a bitch but will work with you to let you do 95% of the work on the airplane. Ply him or her with beer, (wo)men, whatever to keep him or her around. The second is a set-aside of the purchase money for a COMPLETE set of tools that is dedicated to the airplane and not trucked to and from the airport from home. Have your IA go over your intended with a fine tooth comb looking for "stuff" that will have to be done to keep the bird birdworthy. There will always be something ... tires, a cracked flap panel, burned out landing light, all that stuff. Set your bidding price accordingly. If it means an airline ticket for your IA and a day's wages to send him/her to the airplane, cheap price to pay for finding a crack in the spar that will cost thousands to replace. Having said that, and being partial to Cessna for several reasons, I'd find an ancient 172 with a mid time engine and crappy paint, lousy interior, and terrible radios. Spend half your nut on the airframe itself and put the other half in the bank. Fly the sucker for a hundred hours or so with rips in the seats, crackly radios, and the "laughing stock" of the airport bums for looks. To hell with them. If your budget can afford it, a hangar is one of the best investments you can make. It will pay for itself in allowing you to do 95% of the work on the airplane in a semblance of comfort. Do the radios/instruments first. You will have your filthy shoes on the carpet and seats while you struggle with that one last nut on the tray on the top of the stack and if you've done the interior first, you will kick yourself silly for tracking crap all over your fine looking upholstery job. I'm partial to used radios for a couple of reasons, not the least of which you will spend half or less on a used radio than a new one. Don't fall for the "yellow tag" trap. All that stupid yellow tag tells you is that some radio shop puke ran it through its paces on the bench and it met certain minimum standards. Will it crap out when the engine shakes the airplane? Who knows. And don't fall for the "working when removed" line either. No matter who you buy it from or where it came from, buy it with an ironclad ten day or two week no questions asked money back (except for shipping) return guarantee. As with your IA, make friends with your radio shop. TELL them that you are doing your own work, but are more than willing to pay shop labor to shake, rattle, and roll your prospective radio and find out if there is anything that isn't up to snuff and back up their labor rate with some sort of guarantee. The BEST guarantee, if you can find a radio shop willing to do it, is a six month guarantee that if it breaks you will pay actual parts cost and HALF the normal labor rate for repair during the guarantee period. Personally? I've got a pair of KX-170Bs with the associated nav heads. Old radios? Sure, but there is a guy in Trade-A-Plane that specializes in this particular model. They've never crapped out, but if they do, I know where to get them fixed. One last word on radios...make absolutely sure that ALL the connectors come with the radios. If the connectors come with wires cut about six to twelve inches from the connector, you may just wish to check out the various "hot radio" lists to make sure yours wasn't "inadvertently removed" at midnight somewhere. Oh, notice all that yellowed cotton fabric insulation on the wiring that is cracking? Hmmm...surplus stores nationwide have brand new mil-spec aviation wire for pennies on the dollar. Might just as well do the wiring while you are doing the radios. Hint ... use some sort of clear shrink sleeving and color code the end of each wire as you replace it. Makes troubleshooting a whole bunch easier. Hint #2. Download an old copy of Circuitmaker and Traxmaker and become familiar with making your own schematic diagrams. Again, makes troubleshooting a lot easier. Hint #3. Barrier strips and crimp terminals are your friends. Again, again, makes troubleshooting... At the same time you are doing your radios, pull all the instruments and send them out for overhaul. (Nobody said this was going to be cheap.) I personally prefer the Gyro House down in Auburn CA, but then again, I have worked with them for thirty years or so. Get advice in this ng as to folks who have had good results from the various overhaul shops around the country. Now your radio stack, wiring, and instruments are top notch. Give yourself a year's flying with them. Enjoy. Now do the upholstery. Tear the old stuff off right down to bare metal. Prime the bare metal. Paint it with the best rattlecan paint you can find. Go to Airtex and look at their catalog. They make, in my opinion, some of the best upholstery stuff in the world. Or, you can do what Jay Honeck did and find a local upholsterer that is doing a BIG leather job and have him do your seats from the leather scraps from his big job. You will still need carpet, side panels, and headliner from Airtex to match your seat color(s). Fly the airplane for a year. Enjoy. If you need any of the glass replaced, now is the time to do it. If you don't, drilling rivets out of a new paint job will make you cry. Don't do the windshield yourself. It is a lousy, dirty, messy job. Have somebody else crack the new windshield and have to replace it out of their pocket. Want a personal N-Number? Now is the time to do it. My airplane was factory-christened N 5151 D. In '90 it became (ham radio operators note) N 73 CQ. Now find a good paint shop and have them do the painting including the new N-number. Oh, did you keep a logbook of all this stuff? I don't mean the airplane logs. I mean your personal logs. Any time you spend on the airplane (including research and drawing schematics on the computer) is loggable towards your A&P. YOu need 30 months of experience (35 hour weeks, as I recall) just to sit for the exam, and after that (except for annuals) you can sign your own work off. What's that? 5000 hours or so? Hell, you'll have that halfway through the upholstery. Your IA can sign off verifying your time. This is not an absolute requirement, but the local FSDO isn't going to run you through the crap mill if you get the signature. And what has all this bought you? Not only pilot time, but knowing the airplane inside out. Knowing FOR SURE that when you flip the switch, the lights will come on. And you can't buy that experience for love nor money. Jim (Oh, one last thing. You DID start your engine fund when you bought the airplane, yes? By now it is probably a couple of hundred hours past TBO and you might want to start looking at engine parts. You DO want to do the engine yourself, don't you? {;-) Jim, As much as your an arrogant SOB at times you do make sense quite often. I got my ap/ia in much the same way as you described. It mostly started with my first airplane a PA22-150 and worked into a Bonanza. Airplane ownership is more than just flying an aircraft for less than renting. Its making what you have better than the original and doing it because you want to make it better and because you understand why it works. Airplanes are not rocket science, that's why they are so reliable. And an annual doesn't need to be as expensive as most IA's make it to be. You fly because you love it, and you work on your own aircraft for the same reason. It's more than just dollars and cents, its a passion. Dave |
#45
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What would you buy with a 50k budget?
Kirk Ellis wrote ...
Hmmmm.....without my wife I would not be in a position to even entertain the thought of owning an airplane. Even the idea of searching online to gain insight into the financial feasibility of such an endeavor would have been ludicrous. But the information I've gleamed recently has shown what options are available and what path to take. For now, she comes first because it's all about compromise. Thanks for your wisdom and for the advice, opinions and the sharing of experience by all of those who have posted in response to my question. OK Kirk, reality check time: The owner of Pilots Haven (Academy of Aviation dot com) KFRG recently told me that not a single "middle class person" who was a recreational pilot or pilot wannabe has walked thru his doors in the last eight months. Yet he's busier than ever renting G1000 Skyhawks to upper crusties and major airline pilot wannabes working thru to the comm ticket in TAAs. No matter how much people rationalize that "in real dollars against inflation it's no more expensive to fly blah blah blah", the truth is it has gotten pretty tough for Joe Average! So what'dya wanna do, take a timeout or fly? If you have 150hr in 10 years, and you probably spent half that in the first two years getting your ticket, you spend less than 10 hours a year flying. If most of that was $100 burger flights, you are probably so out of practice on the basics that it scares you to think "what if?". So here you are. Now here forward are the options: 1. Run 2. Rent 3. Buy needs (as in meets), not want. If you Run you'll never return, that's just the stats. If you Rent you'll continue on the 10hr/yr road which leads to Run. If you decide you're not a commie pinko thru the fence looking wannabe; then here's your road to happy financially manageable ownership: a. Get together with your partner (wife, not flying partner) and tell her you really really really need to do this. If you can't get at least a reluctant buyin, go back to option #1. If you get the green light, from that moment on NEVER NEVER NEVER mention aviation costs in her presence again EVER! b. Now go have a beer with your real partner (flying partner) and agree that a simple 2 seater like a Tomahawk or C150/2 would probably meet 90% of your NEEDS, and a Cherokee 140 would be the limit (you can always rent if you need more). If after 20 minutes the discussion has moved on to Bonanzas or Mooneys, go back to option #1. c. You've now reached a magic moment, here's where you agree with your partner to visit an accountant to form a Del Corp, establish a Corp checking acct with $20000 ($10K each), and spend the next 3 months renting a plane to go kick some airplane tires. d. You both agressively research everything AOPA has about partnership agreements, perspective owner info, and the purchasing process on their website. e. Then go and ask every airplane owner you meet who his A&P is (write down the name and number), then visit that guy and tell him you are looking for an entry level plane for around 20 to 25K (he will add another 10k in his head, so stay low. No one knows why this happens, but it works the same way with weddings). Even if the A&P route comes up dry (which it almost never does), you'll probably use one of these guys for your PreBuy inspection. If the distance is too far for him, he'll probably know an A&P nearby where you find your plane. f. Look in ASO and Controller and Trade-a-Plane and AOPA and the half dozen other free classified sites on the net. g. Use the $20K as a starting number, remember that nobody pays ASKING price, and plan on using a Bank Loan to finance about half the plane. The bank will tend to slow the process a bit (a day or two), but they are your friend in this process to make sure you get a clean title. AOPA is kind of a one stop shop for both insur and loan, and since your numbers are low end you don't really need to shop around. h. Any more advice and you'll have to pay me. Mike Spera's post was a bit pessimistic, but his numbers were dead on for a single owner 180hp 4-seat plane. Re read my post in this thread that mentions "ego driven mission creep" and stick with a 2-seater that from Northern FL will easily make the trip to Key West (with a fuel stop of course). Then plan on using some of the money I saved you (from the $50K) and get some hours in the plane, it's back to basics time!!! Good Luck. |
#46
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What would you buy with a 50k budget?
Kirk Ellis wrote:
Are half century old airplanes still viable machines? It sounds scary buying something that is almost as old as I am. Mines 55. '53 Pacer that starts getting all new skin this week. Thats not a pricey as a new engine, but it sure ain't cheap either. New sealed struts (kills a repetative AD), new windshield, avionics upgrades, also new wheels, brakes, tires and a paint job when its all done. Then I'll consider a topend (135hp Lycosaurus)... My wing internals look brand new, as does the airframe. Geauxing through the logbooks, lots of stuff (tailwheels, pulleys, cables, wiring, instruments, never a complete fabric job though) has been replaced during those 55 years thats kept it in the good shape its still in. Course its easy to see everything when its naked. Pretty tough to do with the average spamcan... The point about the cash is well taken. I may be able to work that out....of course the "partner" I share the boat with will have something to say about the equity line of credit. If I had to rethink it, probably a partnership in a decent retractable single engined Beech spamcan (just like Newps) or a flying club (ours had shutdown, had an old Cardinal). I've been in the Lancair's and flying faster than 240 mph (on 17 gph @ 18k') sure is nice when from here to there is a far piece (crossing 4 or more states, especially one like Texas)... |
#47
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What would you buy with a 50k budget?
As much as your an arrogant SOB at times That's "you're" From your arrogant SOB. Learn English. Jim |
#48
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What would you buy with a 50k budget?
A Cessna 150... There is a very clean and well maintained one on my
field for $17K... (KHYX) Kepp the remainder of the money for gas, oil, and annuals.. denny |
#49
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What would you buy with a 50k budget?
I am with Jim on this.. If there is a will, there is a way... You have
lost your will... Amen. I am in the process of buying an old Ercoupe in a new flying club that I'm starting with two other guys. Our entire investment will be $18,000 -- divided three ways. I paid $6000 for a motorcycle in 1988. Flying *can* be affordable. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
#50
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What would you buy with a 50k budget?
On Mon, 19 May 2008 03:15:20 GMT, "Mike Isaksen"
wrote: .... reality check time: snip the truth is it has gotten pretty tough for Joe Average! So what'dya wanna do, take a timeout or fly? Good Luck. The attrition rate for recreational pilots will only grow. Wages this year are falling behind inflation and will continue to do so. For many, recreational flying is no longer an affordable luxury / hobby that it was ten years ago. It's becoming a much more elite fraternity. Being a part of that fraternity would definitely be a great adventure but the amount of cash required to join that club is problematic for Joe Average. It's time for a timeout...for it's quite sobering to see how much cash is required. And thanks for your advice. Where do I send the fee? |
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