New Nationwide Squawk Code

On Apr 5, 4:29*pm, JJ Sinclair wrote:
PASCO's El President'a just pumped out orders for all troops to start
squawking 1201 ASAP !

SSSQQQUUUAAAWWWKKK !!!

:) JJ


Since JJ seem to be following up to his own question he posted here
about using 1201 near Reno *and* other locations (covered by NORCAL
approach, Travis AFB, etc.) let's just be clear that all PASCO has
said right now is use 1201 instead of 0440 at Reno. The question about
those other areas is being worked on.

Darryl

On Apr 5, 8:32*am, soarski wrote:
On Apr 3, 8:58*am, Fred wrote:

Dave asks a good question here. He and I discussed this in the hangar
before he posted it, and I didn't have a good answer then. *After
giving it more thought I tend to lean in favor of 1200 because he is
flying in airspace where gliders are not a common experience (into and
out of San Jose's busy airspace) and he can maneuver differently than
I am able to do in a Duo Discus -- which I wouldn't fly into San Jose
or the Bay Area in any case.

But I'd be interested in other thoughts on this question.

Fred LaSor
SoaringNV
Minden, NV

Did I not just read in the FAA rules Code 1201 if not in contact with
ATC, which would mean in many cases that
we stay with 1200 as long as we take off at controlled airports or
similar. Leaving the area we might report switching to
1201??? *......Awaiting a possible question about that *code? *This
would apply to many motorgliders.

Dieter, Stemme S10V

This may be confusing the matter more than it needs to be. Putting
aside the question about motorgliders, "in contact with ATC" in this
case implies a facility with/providing radar services, i.e. situations
in which you were on a flight plan or flight following and would be
assigned a discrete squawk code, if you are just taking off say from a
typical Class D airport you are not receiving radar services.

Darryl

Hi Gang
Since we all have had time to think through this let' summarize what
we know and maybe suggest ways to avoid this happening again. It is
clear that those in the FAA dealing with the glider issue probably
were not experienced glider pilots, had no understanding or maybe were
not aware that motor gliders exist and probably were incompetent to
deal with the subject. Has this happened before? Absolutely! Similar
errors with the LSA glider regs. We all don't seem to ever learn.
AOPA has been an effective organization for GA and actively
communicates with the FAA on almost all subjects relating to aviation.
However it does not have glider experience or knowledge and has not
been involved with issues with gliders. I don't think it could or
would be a spokesman for the gliding community. We do have that
organization in principle - the SSA. But being a member for 15 years
and watching it go through the problems of about 5 years ago when its
funds were stolen and it was totally ineffective, it now could, at
least in principle, be an effective organization to look after gliding
interests. Has it done so recently. In my opinion very poorly. It
truly has to set up by mandate a communication channel with the FAA.
It should list issues, locate the right people in the FAA to discuss
those issues with and communicate continuously with the gliding
community through the SSA magazine Soaring. Feedback from the
community is so important as we have seen with this thread on RAS. The
current example shows clearly what is wrong - don't just ask the FAA
for a special transponder code. Figure out how it will be used, what
its limitations are, how it will be communicated to all concerned and
so on. It can't be a hands off request. It requires thought and
people's inputs. COMMUNICATE - COMMUNICATE - COMMUNICATE Am I hitting
my head against a brick wall or could things be changed?
Dave

This morning, I got the call from our local FSDO about the upcoming
ramp inspection for my Experimental/Exhibition/Racing glider (see
other threads). At the end of our discussion, I asked him if he knew
of the new discrete transponder code for gliders and whether it was
being implemented locally in Arizona. I know this isn't their
department, but thought I might as well ask. In any event, no-one at
the Scottsdale FSDO has heard about it.

Tucson TRACON has previously issued Tucson Soaring Club the discrete
code of 0400 and we will be following up with them to see if we should
keep it or change to 1201.

Mike

On Apr 6, 9:34*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Apr 5, 8:32*am, soarski wrote:





On Apr 3, 8:58*am, Fred wrote:

Dave asks a good question here. He and I discussed this in the hangar
before he posted it, and I didn't have a good answer then. *After
giving it more thought I tend to lean in favor of 1200 because he is
flying in airspace where gliders are not a common experience (into and
out of San Jose's busy airspace) and he can maneuver differently than
I am able to do in a Duo Discus -- which I wouldn't fly into San Jose
or the Bay Area in any case.

But I'd be interested in other thoughts on this question.

Fred LaSor
SoaringNV
Minden, NV

Did I not just read in the FAA rules Code 1201 if not in contact with
ATC, which would mean in many cases that
we stay with 1200 as long as we take off at controlled airports or
similar. Leaving the area we might report switching to
1201??? *......Awaiting a possible question about that *code? *This
would apply to many motorgliders.

Dieter, Stemme S10V

This may be confusing the matter more than it needs to be. Putting
aside the question about motorgliders, "in contact with ATC" in this
case implies a facility with/providing radar services, i.e. situations
in which you were on a flight plan or flight following and would be
assigned a discrete squawk code, if you are just taking off say from a
typical Class D airport you are not receiving radar services

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not quite so....Initially when I flew my S10 out of my airport, I did
not turn on my Transponder since I did not have to and do not have the
batteries for it. One day testing it, the tower found out that I had
one and pleaded to at least have it on while under power, since we
have an incredible amount of jet traffic here. They are very
appreciative about it. I am never on a flightplan or am asigned my own
code, just 1200! Tower controlers hardly look outside anymore, they
depend on their screens. Happily will point out traffic etc. I do not
see a big deal about all this. Remember Gliders do not need a TXponder
yet. So If one is used in a glider, you have a choice now, 1200 or
1201. If you use the later, it will help who ever is looking at you.
Wait till all of us have to use Mode S....Then ATC will know who you
are no matter what you are squaking including your phone #. Some
wheels turn slower than others, nothing to get exited about.
Most likely by the end of summer, leaving the local airspace, tower
might say as I climb thru 15000... You may squak 1201 now. If I am
behind Capitol Peak he wont see me anymore anyway, but some "fast
Heavy" arriving from the west
will or may not, depending what stage of the game my transponder and
my batteries are in.
BTW Tower and approach control is ATC also

soarski

JJ Sinclair wrote:
Ah, confusion rains supreme. Squawk this.......no squawk
that........don't squawk anything? What we have here is the makings of
a good cluster-fuxx. The unskilled led by the untrained, green troops
led by yellow leaders.......wait a minute, have I been recalled to
active duty? That must be it........New orders men.........Continue to
disregard the new squawking procedure until such time as Hq gets an
extraction tool to remove head from butt.
:) JJ

Oh...wait...gliders (most) do not have an "engine driven charging
system" and are thus exempted from needing a transponder in the first
place when flying in class B or C airspace (maybe even class A??? I
don't know....the highest I go is about 4000 MSL). Squawk nothing I
fly my Corben (powered aircraft, no charging system) in Class C airspace
on occasion by calling the airspace authority on the telephone prior to
departure from an airport about 30 minutes out. I do have a handheld
radio and then call them on it about 10 miles from the outer edge. They
usually have me make a 90 degree turn for radar ID and then clear me in.
Simple as that! Then, to top THAT off, they've even re-route F-16s
etc. as necessary and pretty much give me priority (ie Springfield, IL
in this example) and then direct me on the ground to a place such as
Garrett Aviation for overnight parking and Garrett even put me in their
hangar overnight, tucked under the wing of a biz jet, all for FREE!

soarski wrote:
On Apr 6, 9:34 am, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Apr 5, 8:32 am, soarski wrote:





On Apr 3, 8:58 am, Fred wrote:
Dave asks a good question here. He and I discussed this in the hangar
before he posted it, and I didn't have a good answer then. After
giving it more thought I tend to lean in favor of 1200 because he is
flying in airspace where gliders are not a common experience (into and
out of San Jose's busy airspace) and he can maneuver differently than
I am able to do in a Duo Discus -- which I wouldn't fly into San Jose
or the Bay Area in any case.
But I'd be interested in other thoughts on this question.
Fred LaSor
SoaringNV
Minden, NV
Did I not just read in the FAA rules Code 1201 if not in contact with
ATC, which would mean in many cases that
we stay with 1200 as long as we take off at controlled airports or
similar. Leaving the area we might report switching to
1201??? ......Awaiting a possible question about that code? This
would apply to many motorgliders.
Dieter, Stemme S10V
This may be confusing the matter more than it needs to be. Putting
aside the question about motorgliders, "in contact with ATC" in this
case implies a facility with/providing radar services, i.e. situations
in which you were on a flight plan or flight following and would be
assigned a discrete squawk code, if you are just taking off say from a
typical Class D airport you are not receiving radar services

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not quite so....Initially when I flew my S10 out of my airport, I did
not turn on my Transponder since I did not have to and do not have the
batteries for it. One day testing it, the tower found out that I had
one and pleaded to at least have it on while under power, since we
have an incredible amount of jet traffic here. They are very
appreciative about it. I am never on a flightplan or am asigned my own
code, just 1200! Tower controlers hardly look outside anymore, they
depend on their screens. Happily will point out traffic etc. I do not
see a big deal about all this. Remember Gliders do not need a TXponder
yet. So If one is used in a glider, you have a choice now, 1200 or
1201. If you use the later, it will help who ever is looking at you.
Wait till all of us have to use Mode S....Then ATC will know who you
are no matter what you are squaking including your phone #. Some
wheels turn slower than others, nothing to get exited about.
Most likely by the end of summer, leaving the local airspace, tower
might say as I climb thru 15000... You may squak 1201 now. If I am
behind Capitol Peak he wont see me anymore anyway, but some "fast
Heavy" arriving from the west
will or may not, depending what stage of the game my transponder and
my batteries are in.
BTW Tower and approach control is ATC also

soarski

Actually, I don't believe 1200 is just for powered aircraft. 1200
signifies "VFR" flight. ANY type of aircraft can fly VFR...ultralights,
airships, gliders, rotorcraft, etc. Granted 1201 might be nice to help
ATC determine who has "right of way" in any situation...

On Apr 6, 3:40*pm, soarski wrote:
On Apr 6, 9:34*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Apr 5, 8:32*am, soarski wrote:

On Apr 3, 8:58*am, Fred wrote:

Dave asks a good question here. He and I discussed this in the hangar
before he posted it, and I didn't have a good answer then. *After
giving it more thought I tend to lean in favor of 1200 because he is
flying in airspace where gliders are not a common experience (into and
out of San Jose's busy airspace) and he can maneuver differently than
I am able to do in a Duo Discus -- which I wouldn't fly into San Jose
or the Bay Area in any case.

But I'd be interested in other thoughts on this question.

Fred LaSor
SoaringNV
Minden, NV

Did I not just read in the FAA rules Code 1201 if not in contact with
ATC, which would mean in many cases that
we stay with 1200 as long as we take off at controlled airports or
similar. Leaving the area we might report switching to
1201??? *......Awaiting a possible question about that *code? *This
would apply to many motorgliders.

Dieter, Stemme S10V

This may be confusing the matter more than it needs to be. Putting
aside the question about motorgliders, "in contact with ATC" in this
case implies a facility with/providing radar services, i.e. situations
in which you were on a flight plan or flight following and would be
assigned a discrete squawk code, if you are just taking off say from a
typical Class D airport you are not receiving radar services

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not quite so....Initially when I flew my S10 out of my airport, I did
not turn on my Transponder since I did not have to and do not have the
batteries for it. One day testing it, the tower found out that I had
one and pleaded to at least have it on while under power, since we
have an incredible amount of jet traffic here. They are very
appreciative about it. I am never on a flightplan or am asigned my own
code, just 1200! *Tower controlers hardly look outside anymore, they
depend on their screens. Happily will point out traffic etc. I do not
see a big deal about all this. Remember Gliders do not need a TXponder
yet. So If one is used in a glider, you have a choice now, 1200 or
1201. If you use the later, it will help who ever is looking at you.
Wait till all of us have to use Mode S....Then ATC will know who you
are no matter what you are squaking including your phone #. Some
wheels turn slower than others, nothing to get exited about.
Most likely by the end of summer, leaving the local airspace, tower
might say as I climb thru 15000... You may squak 1201 now. If I am
behind Capitol Peak he wont see me anymore anyway, but some "fast
Heavy" arriving from the west
will or may not, depending what stage of the game my transponder and
my batteries are in.
BTW Tower and approach control is ATC also

soarski

No. No and No. Can I be any clearer?

Technically you are required to turn your transponder on if installed.
And the tower folks probably were bemused why you were not. A Stemme
should have lots of power available for a modern low-power transponder
(Becker, Trig etc). And for God's sake if it's installed and you are
flying near heavy traffic, turn it on.

Do you know for sure that the tower controllers have radar? Which
class D do you fly out of? The tower may well want to make sure you
are visible to approach/tracon radar services once you leave the
airport vicinity.

You won't get assigned a discreet code unless you file a flight plan
or use flight following. Just departing a class D airport VFR with no
flight plan you will not get a unique code, that's expected. You would
normally get a discrete code for flight following if you contact
approach or a similar facility providing radar services once airborne
and request flight following. It seems you are flying around traffic
near controlled airspace and maybe could do with sitting down with
somebody, maybe an power instructor, and going over how ATC operates,
how to use things like flight following, etc.

I am well aware what ATC is but I was trying to explain to you how it
was being used in what you were reading. The document was referring to
radar services when saying ATC and your question about squawking 1200
if in touch with a tower was confusing this discussion.

If is at all not clear that 1201 will automatically "help whoever is
looking at you". Did you miss the people in this thread warning to
check with your local ATC facilities (e.g. likely approach/TRACON not
tower) about wether they can handle 1201. I know some will treat 1201
exactly the same as 1200 and just see the "V" for VFR symbol on their
display (confirmed today that is the situation with Oakland ARTCC).
Some others facilities may have problems with 1201 and not want that
squawked. Clearly everybody has been caught hopping by this
announcement of the allocation, but it's an allocation of a national
code, not an national announcement that facilities are ready to handle
this or to pilots what to do.

Darryl

On Apr 6, 3:40*pm, soarski wrote:
On Apr 6, 9:34*am, Darryl Ramm wrote:



On Apr 5, 8:32*am, soarski wrote:

On Apr 3, 8:58*am, Fred wrote:

Dave asks a good question here. He and I discussed this in the hangar
before he posted it, and I didn't have a good answer then. *After
giving it more thought I tend to lean in favor of 1200 because he is
flying in airspace where gliders are not a common experience (into and
out of San Jose's busy airspace) and he can maneuver differently than
I am able to do in a Duo Discus -- which I wouldn't fly into San Jose
or the Bay Area in any case.

But I'd be interested in other thoughts on this question.

Fred LaSor
SoaringNV
Minden, NV

Did I not just read in the FAA rules Code 1201 if not in contact with
ATC, which would mean in many cases that
we stay with 1200 as long as we take off at controlled airports or
similar. Leaving the area we might report switching to
1201??? *......Awaiting a possible question about that *code? *This
would apply to many motorgliders.

Dieter, Stemme S10V

This may be confusing the matter more than it needs to be. Putting
aside the question about motorgliders, "in contact with ATC" in this
case implies a facility with/providing radar services, i.e. situations
in which you were on a flight plan or flight following and would be
assigned a discrete squawk code, if you are just taking off say from a
typical Class D airport you are not receiving radar services

Darryl- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not quite so....Initially when I flew my S10 out of my airport, I did
not turn on my Transponder since I did not have to and do not have the
batteries for it. One day testing it, the tower found out that I had
one and pleaded to at least have it on while under power, since we
have an incredible amount of jet traffic here. They are very
appreciative about it. I am never on a flightplan or am asigned my own
code, just 1200! *Tower controlers hardly look outside anymore, they
depend on their screens. Happily will point out traffic etc. I do not
see a big deal about all this. Remember Gliders do not need a TXponder
yet. So If one is used in a glider, you have a choice now, 1200 or
1201. If you use the later, it will help who ever is looking at you.
Wait till all of us have to use Mode S....Then ATC will know who you
are no matter what you are squaking including your phone #. Some
wheels turn slower than others, nothing to get exited about.
Most likely by the end of summer, leaving the local airspace, tower
might say as I climb thru 15000... You may squak 1201 now. If I am
behind Capitol Peak he wont see me anymore anyway, but some "fast
Heavy" arriving from the west
will or may not, depending what stage of the game my transponder and
my batteries are in.
BTW Tower and approach control is ATC also

soarski

BTW to be clear about the 1201 and TCAS and that fast-heavy.... TCAS
won't care whether you squawk 1200, 1201 or a discrete code. TCAS only
interrogates Mode C or Mode S, and does not and cannot see your Mode A/
C transponder's squawk code.


Darryl

kd6veb wrote:
The
current example shows clearly what is wrong - don't just ask the FAA
for a special transponder code. Figure out how it will be used, what
its limitations are, how it will be communicated to all concerned and
so on. It can't be a hands off request. It requires thought and
people's inputs. COMMUNICATE - COMMUNICATE - COMMUNICATE Am I hitting
my head against a brick wall or could things be changed?
Dave

I think you are overreacting. A national transponder code WAS NOT an
important issue, as most glider pilots don't have a transponder, the
majority of those that do, don't fly in high traffic areas, and those
that did, could have local agreements. The fact the "allocation notice"
was missed is annoying but did not cause any problems whatsoever. Take a
deep breath, it's a glitch by the FAA, not an SSA failing.

The most important thing is to have a transponder in busy areas, and
having it set on 1200 will accomplish 99.9% of what's needed, excepting
those areas that have a local agreement. The code will supplant those
local agreements, eventually. It does not improve safety now, though it
might help some in the future.

Based on my conversations with the directors and others working with the
FAA on this issue over the years, I think this code was pursued with the
proper amount of diligence. I hope you have the chance to talk to some
of these people, so you can see it was far from a single request to the
FAA that got us to this code. They resisted it for quite while, so the
"requesting" had to be persistent over many years. It was simply a very
small issue to the FAA.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (netto to net to email me)

- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz