Check in ...East Coast BLACKOUT

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:33:16 -0700, Tom S. wrote:

Roger Halstead wrote:

Of the modern countries the US is ranked as the lowest when it comes
to cell phones as the primary phone.

That's because we have the most advanced landline system.


IBTD.

And, for all we gripe about it, a phone here costs about $20-30 a month.
Most of the rest of the world pay from two to five times (or more) that
amount.

ah!

When I was stationed in Germany in the early 70's, a phone was about $100 a

oh yes. Hardfacts from 30 years back.

month and long distance was pretty much out of the question. LD calls had to
go through the operator. When I got back, the phone was $11 a month. Wonder
what it costs now.

Prices are rather similar, for about this rate you can have a ISDN line.
Calling rates dropped dramatically in hte last year. For me it is cheaper
to call from Europe to the US than calling home when in the US.

actually: in Europe you have a quote of 60 to 90% of cell phone users
(Italy is leasing).
most of the telephone landlines are not older than 50 years and you can
have mostly everywhere a 56K modem conect (only few use 33.6 modems).

the European power system is designed for stability and we have one shared
power network.

to see the difference before and after the power-outage:
Satellite Views Of The Blackout

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightli...efore-text.jpg

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/nightli...after-text.jpg

It was a former US energy minister who said the US is world leader in
economy etc, with a 3rd world-like power network.

#m
--
http://www.usawatch.org/ http://www.alternet.org/
Don't like your neighbor? - https://tips.fbi.gov/

Bombing for peace is like ****ing for virginity.

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:59:22 -0400, G.R. Patterson III wrote:

They privatized the phone system in the 90's. It may or may not be cheaper,
but it's easier for German people to get a phone now than it used to be.

At least true for Austria: You are guaranteed an installation within 6 days
of your order.

#m

--
http://www.usawatch.org/ http://www.alternet.org/
Don't like your neighbor? - https://tips.fbi.gov/

Bombing for peace is like ****ing for virginity.

On Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:13:19 GMT, "Peter Gottlieb"
wrote:

Hook up a cable to the UPS comm port and set it up to do an orderly shutdown
at 10% battery life remaining.

That is the way mine is set up for the one computer.
Unfortunately the second computer is pretty much on its own.
Hence the desire to get three more UPS.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)


snip

Jim Fisher wrote:

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
I wonder how they backup the cell towers and how long the will stay up
without the power lines.

You ever notice those little "dog houses" that sit beside the tower? It
houses a generator. Usually powered by natural gas so it's fuel supply is
virtually limitless.

--
Jim Fisher


While we're on the subject of 'juice' so to speak, in every power outage
up here in the north country [upstate NY] the phones are mercifully
still much welcomed operation but, here's the thing, while it's common
knowledge that the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source? Or
does the phone system commonly LOW DC voltage and thus absence of any
needed AC 'push' amperage [dunno, I'm asking!] permit a DC generator
system that can virtually run with no problems!? Any phone techs in the
house?

Of note...I have an ARO [amateur radio operator] amigo in Russia and we
converse doing the low power and rig/computer assisted RTTY [radio
teletype] thing and he believes it's utterly 'amazing' that Americans
and canadians have such 'up time' telephone and power generation systems
[despite the occasional grid foul-ups and assorted local woes ] where he
says in Russia it is a literal 'treat' to get uninterrupted phone and
power service for more than a few 'days' without one or both failing or
in fact being shut off [!] for one reason or another ...yet the attitude
there is 'so what else is new' where here [USA/Canada] it's good for
talk show circuit and blame mongering fodder ..... for days!

Doc Tony

"Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo" wrote:

Jim Fisher wrote:

"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
I wonder how they backup the cell towers and how long the will stay up
without the power lines.

You ever notice those little "dog houses" that sit beside the tower? It
houses a generator. Usually powered by natural gas so it's fuel supply is
virtually limitless.

--
Jim Fisher

While we're on the subject of 'juice' so to speak, in every power outage
up here in the north country [upstate NY] the phones are mercifully
still much welcomed operation but, here's the thing, while it's common
knowledge that the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source? Or
does the phone system commonly LOW DC voltage and thus absence of any
needed AC 'push' amperage [dunno, I'm asking!] permit a DC generator
system that can virtually run with no problems!? Any phone techs in the
house?

Of note...I have an ARO [amateur radio operator] amigo in Russia and we
converse doing the low power and rig/computer assisted RTTY [radio
teletype] thing and he believes it's utterly 'amazing' that Americans
and canadians have

Whoops! Didn't hit the cap letter shift key there...make that to read
"Canadians" ! What's that? Bizzzzz! Honest typo above ...proof....why
would I correctly capitalize 'Canada' down below? So there! ;-)

such 'up time' telephone and power generation systems
[despite the occasional grid foul-ups and assorted local woes ] where he
says in Russia it is a literal 'treat' to get uninterrupted phone and
power service for more than a few 'days' without one or both failing or
in fact being shut off [!] for one reason or another ...yet the attitude
there is 'so what else is new' where here [USA/Canada] it's good for
talk show circuit and blame mongering fodder ..... for days!

Doc Tony

In article ,
While we're on the subject of 'juice' so to speak, in every power outage
up here in the north country [upstate NY] the phones are mercifully
still much welcomed operation but, here's the thing, while it's common
knowledge that the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source?

All telco gear that I've ever heard of runs on 48V DC, supplied by huge
banks of lead-acid batteries. The batteries are constantly being
recharged from commercial power (what's known as "float service"). If
you lose commercial power, there's supposed to be enough battery power
to keep things going for 24 hours.

In addition, central offices and other switching facilities have
emergency backup generators. As soon as the commercial power goes down,
the generators are supposed to crank up and keep things going for as
long as the diesel fuel holds out.

Of course, it doesn't always work that way. I remember something like
10-15 years ago, a major long-distance switch in Manhattan went down. I
don't remember the details, but it was a combination of a generator
either failing or being taken out of service for testing and an alarm
being disconnected. Power was lost and the switch kept on chugging for
about a day on battery without anybody noticing. Eventually, the
batteries were drained, and the switch died (at which point somebody
finally noticed). Unbeliveable stupidity. I assume heads rolled over
that.

Roy Smith wrote:

In article ,
While we're on the subject of 'juice' so to speak, in every power outage
up here in the north country [upstate NY] the phones are mercifully
still much welcomed operation but, here's the thing, while it's common
knowledge that the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source?

All telco gear that I've ever heard of runs on 48V DC, supplied by huge
banks of lead-acid batteries. The batteries are constantly being
recharged from commercial power (what's known as "float service"). If
you lose commercial power, there's supposed to be enough battery power
to keep things going for 24 hours.

In addition, central offices and other switching facilities have
emergency backup generators. As soon as the commercial power goes down,
the generators are supposed to crank up and keep things going for as
long as the diesel fuel holds out.

Of course, it doesn't always work that way. I remember something like
10-15 years ago, a major long-distance switch in Manhattan went down. I
don't remember the details, but it was a combination of a generator
either failing or being taken out of service for testing and an alarm
being disconnected. Power was lost and the switch kept on chugging for
about a day on battery without anybody noticing. Eventually, the
batteries were drained, and the switch died (at which point somebody
finally noticed). Unbeliveable stupidity. I assume heads rolled over
that.


Thank you, Roy! I've often found that questions float around [this one
in fact came up during the recent outage] which folks, myself inclusive,
take for granted the known 'phones still work during power outages' BUT
when my wife asked me the 'why' of that, well, it was one of those
tongue-in-cheek but true nevertheless '...can't say I'm familiar with
that, honey...' [*translation: dunno!] chestnuts. ;-)

Doc Tony
;-)

On Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:44:25 -0400, "Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo"
wrote:

the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source? Or
does the phone system commonly LOW DC voltage and thus absence of any
needed AC 'push' amperage [dunno, I'm asking!] permit a DC generator
system that can virtually run with no problems!? Any phone techs in the
house?

I used to work for ALLTEL, a medium sized Incumbent Local Exchange
Carrier, in the United States.

A telephone system's local loop in the United States, the two pair of
wires which connect to your home (only one of which is usually in use,
so the other might not be connected to the entire system) are wired to
a bank of batteries which provide +48vDC. There are generators which
keep the batteries charged, but the phone system powers its equipment
with the DC electricity from those batteries.

And, yes, as the price for maintaining that monopoly all those years,
AT&T was required to meet uptime standards and connect to anyone who
wanted the service, no matter where he lived. The result after several
decades was a remarkably complete and nearly ubiquitous telephone
system nationwide. The Babybells and the other ILEC companies which
survived them still have to meet those requirements. "Cable
telephone", IP telephony, and cell phone providers do not.

That's why the system glitches with "cable telephone" service, small
though they were, were so surprisingly significant to people; at least
two generations of Americans grew up without ever experiencing a
telephone infrastructure failure of any kind.

But, it's also why the "last mile" of high-speed Internet connectivity
has been so difficult to make ubiquitous. That nine-nines-reliable
phone network is only reliable for 3-minute-average telephone
conversations nationwide.

But it all held true until the Internet and cell phones came along,
and all the network provisioning assumptions the Bells made got shot
to gehenna when people nailed up their phone lines to have a 24/7
Internet connection and started to have three or more telephone
numbers per household. It was only then that we started hearing "we
can't do it" on a regular basis, and only then that the area codes
started to change a lot.

Over in Europe and in the "Third World" nations, they're still
building out a telephone network for their people, what with costs
having been so much higher and brain trust so much more expensive,
before some very recent political changes were made. That's why those
systems appear to be more advanced; the initial investments in network
infrastructure were made far later. The older infrastructure in North
America and (to a slightly lesser extent) Western Europe still works
just fine for what most people want.

Rob

"Dr. Anthony J. Lomenzo" wrote:

While we're on the subject of 'juice' so to speak, in every power outage
up here in the north country [upstate NY] the phones are mercifully
still much welcomed operation but, here's the thing, while it's common
knowledge that the phone system wires carry their own juice, well, even
those wires have to have a source for their power generation! Where is
it and note that even in extensive power grid failures like the nation
just experienced, the phones came through! So where is their source?

The basic phone system runs on 48 volt DC. Most switches are located in
"Central Offices". These are manned stations. These contain battery banks,
which are constantly charged by commercial power supplies. Each office has
diesel generators to power chargers in the event of a power loss.

Developed areas which are not fairly close to small cities (or larger metro
areas) may connect to a "remote switching unit". These are located in unmanned
offices. These offices have backup power of some sort, usually diesel, but it
is expected that field personel will come out within a day or two to make sure
everything's OK. They cannot run indefinitely in backup mode.

Areas which are located far enough from the office will be served by digital
communication means. Multiplexed varieties of these systems are used in high
traffic areas, whether close to the C.O. or not. These digital centers and
optional multiplexers are located in unmanned stations. In the northeast, these
are usually underground in "controlled environment vaults". These CEVs have
battery backup power, but usually don't have generators. This requires that
field personel show up shortly with backup generators in an extended power
loss.

From your viewpoint, it doesn't matter if the CEV went down, the RSU went down,
or the CO went down. If any of the three happen, your phone is dead.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.

Roy Smith wrote:

Of course, it doesn't always work that way. I remember something like
10-15 years ago, a major long-distance switch in Manhattan went down.

I was working for Bell Communications Research at the time. As I recall, it
was a CEV containing multiplexing and digitizing equipment. A lot of Wall
Street traffic went through there. It did not have its own backup generators,
and, as you stated, someone disabled the alarm after it went off. Normally,
field crews would be sent out with portable generators before shutting the
alarm off, but someone screwed up.

Yes, heads rolled.

George Patterson
Brute force has an elegance all its own.