Full before landing checklist in the pattern?

aaronw wrote:

In the C-172SP I fly I do:

/snip/
A quick glance at the engine gauges to ensure that oil pressure (above
all else) is in the green.

aw

Sooo, what do you do if the oil pressure is not in the green? You DON'T
land???

Larry Dighera wrote:

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 08:41:12 -0500, Steve Robertson
wrote in Message-Id: :

Full throttle with carb
heat on will still get you enough power to go around

Full throttle with carburetor head applied is also likely to cause
detonation due to an excessively lean mixture. This preignition
applies all the instantaneous force of the _exploding_ (as opposed to
burning) gasoline/air mixture directly against the top of an ascending
(not descending as normal) piston. Detonation can bend piston rods or
crack the case. Over a longer period of time, detonation can burn
through the top of aluminum pistons.

Induced engine damage:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main...ips/index.html

Detonation and preignition:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main...ips/index.html

No argument from me, Larry. Long term use is not good. But I am talking about a go-around
situation where the pilot's choice is full throttle or crash. And the carb heat can be
turned off in a matter of seconds after going full throttle. I'm trying to convince a guy to
use carb heat on final as directed by the POH. You are not helping! (By the way, applying
carb heat enrichens the mixture in most flight regimes because the hot air is less dense
than cold air. The laws of physics are seldom broken by us mortals.) Also, your references
are for Lycoming engines, which are, in general, much less suseptible to carb ice than small
Continentals due to the design of the intake system.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft A23-24

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 13:29:39 -0500, Steve Robertson
wrote in Message-Id: :

I'm trying to convince a guy to
use carb heat on final as directed by the POH. You are not helping!

I agree. Pilots should do what it says in the POH. You'll get no
argument from me on that point.

If you'd ever applied carburetor heat and full throttle on a Lycoming
O-235, you'd understand the reason I mentioned detonation. I suppose
that (and the way the Lycoming induction system is plumbed against the
warm engine oil sump) is why the Piper POH doesn't recommend the use
of CH unless induction icing has actually occurred, unlike Cessna.

I've had my share of emergencies, Orval, in singles and twins, and I stand
by my comments.

Bob Gardner

"Orval Fairbairn" wrote in message
news ...
In article F9vqb.94384$ao4.279861@attbi_s51,
"Bob Gardner" wrote:

I don't like situational instruction, where one action is required under
one
set of circumstances and a different action is required under a
different
set of circumstances. Teach one procedure that works all the time.



There AIN'T no such thing! If you have an emergency, you're screwed
with that policy!





"BoDEAN" wrote in message
...
How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

That's exactly what I meant, David....way to go! There was a time when
fixed-gear Beech trainers had a faux landing gear switch, just to develop
the habit pattern.

Bob Gardner

"David Brooks" wrote in message
...
"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


BoDEAN wrote:

How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
doing pattern work?

I flew with at least six different instructors during training for my
PPC,
two
others for transition to tailwheel, and several others for BFRs. None
used
checklists during landing, nor did any of them recommend that I create
one
or
use one.

My instructors talked about it, but didn't regularly reinforce the habit
and
as a result I often forget. In a 172 and similar, there really is nothing
to
actually *do* as a result of the checklist (I think that was the point
about
the seatbelts; you always know you are wearing them) and, ironically, if
you
do the check on downwind you probably don't pull the carb heat yet.

On the occasions when I do remember or am reminded, I usually take care to
actually touch the fuel selector, mixture, and primer, and look down at
the
gear. I hope I'm creating habits that will help when I fly something more
complex, but right now I'm worried about re-creating the checklist habit
in
the first place.

-- David Brooks

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 6...
T-Boy wrote

You land with the carb heat ON?

My Cessna provided pilot's operating handbook checklist for a 1959
C-172 reads as follows:

J. BEFORE LANDING.
(1) Set fuel selector to "Both".
(2) Recheck mixture "Full Rich" (full in).
(3) Apply carburetor heat before closing throttle.

Of course this was before the FAA seatbelt regulation which added
to later models a "Seatbelts ON" item.

A commercially available C-172 N model checklist from AVTECH PILOT
PRODUCTS reads as follows:

BEFORE LANDING CHECKLIST
Seats/Seatbelts............Secure
Fuel Selector..............Fullest Tank/Both
Carburetor Heat............ON
Mixture....................Rich/As Required

I've spent about six years landing with the carb heat ON.

And on a go around it is possible to open the throttle and push the carb
heat in at the same movement, its what the thumb is for.

This gets back to the discussion/controversy about "do" lists versus "check"
lists....students are taught to use the list as a "do" list, which requires
taking an action (or touching a control) for each item on the list. With
experience, pilots graduate to a "check" list, where they use a flow pattern
or other method to do what needs to be done, and then refer to the list as a
"Have I forgotten anything?" reminder.

Bob Gardner

"mrwallace" wrote in message
...

"BoDEAN" wrote in message
...
How many people do / teach doing a full before landing checklist when
doing pattern work? I do with my students, but other cfi's I work with
use a quick / abbreviated one for our Cessna 172/152

I do not have my students reading or referring to printed checklists
while
in the pattern, however I insist that they use them for specific phases of
flight, for example, Level Off, Cruise, Arrival, Approach, etc.
Strangely,
there is a flight school in our area that specializes in light twin
training
and they did , and might still, have students referring to a written
checklist on takeoff and climbout, they might also do this while in the
pattern also. Kinda scary to think about. I would much rather have
someone
looking out of the window for traffic and keeping a simple, light,
workload
while in the pattern. Besides making sure that the lights are on, the
gauges are green, mixture is set properly and that the carb ht. is set
what
else is there? No gear, no cowl flaps, no prop setting, no tanks to
switch,
no autopilot, no spoilers, no pres/diff, nothing to arm etc. besides the
guys who have these things take care of them when in range and before they
enter the pattern.
Happy Flying R.Wallace

aaronw wrote:

[speaking of landing checklists]

A quick glance at the engine gauges to ensure that oil pressure (above
all else) is in the green.

....and if it's not, what do you do? land?

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

mqd_117.3 wrote in message ...

Abbreviated checks means abbreviated life!

What about blindly following checklists? For example :

snip

Mixture - rich

Try this at a 7,000 ft. MSL on a warm summer day and you'll be
disappointed in what happens when you advance the throttle to go
around.

I am on a personal crusade to get pilots to change this item to :

Mixture - set appropriately

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

In article , says...

T-Boy wrote:

I snip

You land with the carb heat ON?

snip

Turning final, carb heat back off. (Any probs in the land, or even
after landing that might necessitate a go round, I'm ready for full
throttle - no messing around with the carb heat).

--
Duncan

Doing it your way, you may find that full throttle produces little power because
the carb could be iced up. Check your POH. I believe you will find it specifies
the use of full carb heat any time RPM is reduced below the green arc on the
tach. There is a reason for this, especially on O-200 and O-300 powered Cessnas.

Let me assure you that most folks without a crippled hand can push the throttle
and carb heat on a Cessna forward at the same time if need be. If physically
unable, go to full throttle and then turn carb heat off. Full throttle with carb
heat on will still get you enough power to go around (unless you are in a C-150
and have 40 degress of flaps down), especially considering you will have the
carb heat off in about 2 more seconds.

Thanks Steve, it's interesting you and Robert Moore (who's obviously an
experienced instructor) say this. I've never been taught it, and I've
had probably ten/fifteen different instructors over the years. They've
all taught me the way I've described already.

I find it somewhat difficult to believe that carb icing could occur
after have flown a base leg with carb heat fully on, on the final. Bear
in mind that this is a VFR/VMC approach - though sure, on some days,
dewpoint is indeed sometimes quite close to temp.

Any more comments - appreciated. Meantime, I might practice the carb
heat off, throttle on - simultaneous thing (sounds easy enough).

--
Duncan