Slavery In Aviation

Quite a rant, CJ. Get a grip.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message

....I think it is theft and, at bottom, an offense as serious
as murder.

One of the more patently ridiculous statements I've seen in a newsgroup.


Or do you think that they will just
continue being willing to fly 747s on international routes for free just
to
build up hours?

CFIs already work harder than that. And what does international have to do
with it? People always throw that in, like its five times harder to cross a
boundary or something. Silly.

"Snowbird" wrote in message
m...

A number of CFIs were sitting around a table inside, kvetching
about how they weren't flying and hence weren't earning money...
Now I guess snow removal wasn't in their job description. But if
they'd all pitched in and shoveled the snow off the planes, put
the first planes on the schedule inside the heated hangars to warm
up, ... They lost. Their employer lost, and ultimately went out of
business.

Exactly.

"Snowbird" wrote in message
m...
"Gary Mishler" wrote in message
news:Ewbsb.172027$HS4.1394008@attbi_s01...

"Jeff Franks" wrote in message
...
No, but it does show your priorities. I'm only interested in employees
who
care about the company (and thereby their jobs). Refusing to do
something
that is necessary for the company's survival makes no sense to me.

It's like you said, and it's also customer service. If my students
can't
get into the building without getting their feet wet because the walks
aren't shoveled they may end up going somewhere else, which would also
be my
loss.

True story.

It doesn't snow that much in St Louis, and when it does snow, it usually
only lasts a couple days before melting off. So people and businesses
don't make the same level of arrangements to cope as people in colder
climes must.

When I was a student pilot at a local flight school, we had a cold
snap following a reasonably substantial snow. A week after the snowfall,
snow was still on the ground.

I went out to the airport to fly. The planes were still covered with
snow. The ramps surrounding the planes were plowed, but snow had been
pushed up so that it formed a barrier to pulling each plane out.

A number of CFIs were sitting around a table inside, kvetching
about how they weren't flying and hence weren't earning money.

Now I guess snow removal wasn't in their job description. But if
they'd all pitched in and shoveled the snow off the planes, put
the first planes on the schedule inside the heated hangars to warm
up, called the airport authority to plow the cleared section of the
ramp clean then moved other planes and gotten the rest of the ramp
plowed, they could have been flying (and earning money) all week.
And honey, I'm from Western New York and I've shoveled snow in my
time. I coulda got that whole ramp clean by myself in 3 days with
only a shovel. Half a dozen strapping and healthy young fellows
and a tractor with a plow on it, 3 hrs max.

They lost. Their employer lost, and ultimately went out of business.

I guess sometimes it's better to avoid working for free sometimes than to
keep working at all.

Sydney

You just gave CJ a heart attack.

"Jeff Franks" wrote in message
...
|
| However, the topic needs to be discussed. There appear to be a number of
| deluded individuals that think being forced to work without pay is a
good
| thing. Personally, I think it is theft and, at bottom, an offense as
| serious
| as murder.
|
| As are the unaccounted for personal calls and 10-minute "unofficial"
breaks
| that everyone takes on the boss's dime.

Baloney. A pilot gets paid for flight time only. What he does in between
flights is his own time. The boss sure isn't paying for it.

As for shoveling the walk to the terminal without pay -- at what point in
your career do you start refusing to do that? When you become a charter
pilot? Start flying for the regionals? Majors? Just wondering how long you
plan to keep your work ethic.

"Snowbird" wrote in message
m...
|
| Now I guess snow removal wasn't in their job description. But if
| they'd all pitched in and shoveled the snow off the planes, put
| the first planes on the schedule inside the heated hangars to warm
| up, called the airport authority to plow the cleared section of the
| ramp clean then moved other planes and gotten the rest of the ramp
| plowed, they could have been flying (and earning money) all week.
| And honey, I'm from Western New York and I've shoveled snow in my
| time. I coulda got that whole ramp clean by myself in 3 days with
| only a shovel. Half a dozen strapping and healthy young fellows
| and a tractor with a plow on it, 3 hrs max.
|
| They lost. Their employer lost, and ultimately went out of business.
|

So what was the employer doing? Apparently he would rather go out of
business than pay his employees or do the work himself.

"Tom S." wrote in message
...
|
|
| However, the topic needs to be discussed. There appear to be a number of
| deluded individuals that think being forced to work without pay is a
good
| thing. Personally, I think it is theft and, at bottom, an offense as
| serious
| as murder.
|
| "Forced"? Someone is holding a gun on them? Holding their family hostage?
|

Essentially, yes. Some employers tell their employees that they have to work
for free 'or else.' The 'or else' usually means your family suffers.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Tom S." wrote in message
...
|
|
| However, the topic needs to be discussed. There appear to be a number
of
| deluded individuals that think being forced to work without pay is a
good
| thing. Personally, I think it is theft and, at bottom, an offense as
| serious
| as murder.
|
| "Forced"? Someone is holding a gun on them? Holding their family
hostage?
|

Essentially, yes. Some employers tell their employees that they have to
work
for free 'or else.' The 'or else' usually means your family suffers.


So what, these employees are locked up or do they have leg irons to prevent
their escape? Or do you mean the employer comes in the dark of night and
makes off with the first born?

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
"Tom S." wrote in message
...
|
|
| However, the topic needs to be discussed. There appear to be a number of
| deluded individuals that think being forced to work without pay is a
good
| thing. Personally, I think it is theft and, at bottom, an offense as
serious
| as murder.
|
| "Forced"? Someone is holding a gun on them? Holding their family hostage?
|

Essentially, yes. Some employers tell their employees that they have to work
for free 'or else.' The 'or else' usually means your family suffers.

What is the threat? What is the 'or else'? 'Or you will be fired'?
This is hardly slavery and *nothing* remotely similar to theft (and to
compare it to murder is absurd).

When I tell a store owner 'If you can't get your prices down, I'll
have to go elsewhere.' I'm giving him an 'or else'. And I am totally
within my rights. When my employer tells me I need to increase my
productivity, or he'll have to let me go, he's giving me an 'or else'.
And he's totally within his rights.

If my employer tells me I have do do XYZ job 'for free' or he'll let
me go, then it is my *choice* whether I'm going to do it or not.
Nobody elses. Period. Not theft, not slavery, but *choice*. I've quit
jobs before because I didn't want to comply with their demans, and
I've done things at jobs I didn't love to do, because I preferred
doing those things to the alternatives. In the end it is my choice.

If you think the threat of being fired is akin to blackmail or theft,
then you must also think that threatening to leave (as an employee)
for more money if the company won't give me a raise is the same,
right? I mean there is a 'threat' that if my demands are not met, then
I'll do something harmful to the company. Do I have the right to do
this? Obviously I do.

This is just silly. If your company wants you to do something you
don't want to, you have the option of quitting. Slaves don't have the
option of quitting. People being robbed don't have the option of not
being robbed. But as an employee, I certainly have the right to quit.
Might it hurt my family if I do? Sure. But I'm the one making that
choice. Find somebody who is a *real* victim of theft, and ask them
about the level of choice they had in the matter.

Cheers,

Cap

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

So what was the employer doing?

Managing his other businesses.

Apparently he would rather go out of
business than pay his employees or do the work himself.

Actually, this particular flight school was much sought after
amoung CFIs because they paid health insurance and some other
benefits, which are NOT cheap for a small business to provide.
Plus they were very busy and had Pt 135 Charter with twins, so
the CFIs got a lot of hours and a chance to move into multi
charter work.

So I would tend to believe he was already compensating his
employees to the max of what he could without running his
rental rates over the "market" at the time.

And essentially, you're right. The employer had other businesses
which were profitable and which took up his time, and he would
rather close an unprofitable business then make it still less
profitable, and turn his attention to other venues.

Makes sense to me.

Sydney

On 12 Nov 2003 06:23:52 -0800, (Captain Wubba)
wrote in Message-Id:
:

If my employer tells me I have do do XYZ job 'for free' or he'll let
me go, then it is my *choice* whether I'm going to do it or not.
Nobody elses. Period. Not theft, not slavery, but *choice*.

If you are fired for failing to perform work without compensation,
your employer is in violation of your state labor laws; trust me.