Got burned - Don't go to Lansing Jet Center.

When I was in Los Angeles several years ago, I wanted to rent a plane for a
couple of hours, just to check out the area. At the time, I had well over 1000
hrs in type and
all my documents in order, etc.

OF COURSE, I expected a checkout.

I went to Van Nuys Airport and picked an FBO (it's no longer there). My
checkride was 3 hours long. I understaood the airspace orientation and the
local protocol checkout . . . but the checkpilot made me fly the pattern and do
more than a dozen landings (every kind you can think of--short field, soft
field, power off, no-flaps, full flaps). It was ridiculous. I could feel him
just ripping me off and watching the Hobbs click off like a cash register. It
was completely unnecessary. By the time I was finished and signed off to rent,
I was too damn tired. I just left and never went back.

OTOH, when I was at Peter O Knight in Tampa getting checked out in their Arrow,
my checkpilot was about 80 years old, I did 3 circuits around the pattern while
he slept the entire time.

In Vernon, BC, Canada, my checkride was ONCE around the pattern . . . took
about .3 for the entire checkout.


www.Rosspilot.com

First, I've trimmed the subject line since the issue
with the complainee has been resolved.

Second, you seem to have an attitude problem. Flying
is expensive, so get used to it. Checking out in a
new plane is a great experience, not an excuse to
sue. Why did you want to learn to fly in the first place?

Thirdly, although you may think you're the hottest
student pilot around, others will need convincing. Every
time someone signs you off, they are putting their
own ticket - and possibly their business - on the line.
If that doesn't concern you, then realize they might
well be saving your own over-confident arse.

Frankly, I'd not risk my livelihood for some sue-happy
student pilot. You sound like an FBO's nightmare.

"MRQB" wrote in message
...

1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my training
prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my
expense
witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.
2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
instruction with their instructor
3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor
4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors
not
wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money in
their pocket.

I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor



--
Dr. Tony Cox
Citrus Controls Inc.
e-mail:
http://CitrusControls.com/

I, too, have had sue-happy students who have a room temperature IQ and a chip on
their shoulder. For one lesson. {;-)

Jim


"MRQB"
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

-Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another flight
-school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student pilots
-and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.
-
-
-



Jim Weir (A&P/IA, CFI, & other good alphabet soup)
VP Eng RST Pres. Cyberchapter EAA Tech. Counselor
http://www.rst-engr.com

In a previous article, "MRQB" said:
school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for not
disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the plane
they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a cretin
date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.

We're supposed to believe you're a doctor when your spelling and grammar
are worse than my 14 year old daughter when she's off her Ritalin?

Go away, you odious troll.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
If I have to deal with another salesweasel, I shall scream, if only to
cover the sound caused by me ripping his head from his body to use the
carcass as a footstool. -- MC Langston

ospam (Rosspilot) wrote
I went to Van Nuys Airport and picked an FBO (it's no longer there). My
checkride was 3 hours long...
By the time I was finished and signed off to rent,
I was too damn tired. I just left and never went back.

When I used to travel commercial a lot and didn't own a plane, I used
to like to check out locally to do some flying. I always made it a
point to call in advance and find out what kind of checkout was
required. Sometimes I would hear "Oh, usually an hour with a CFI."
That was OK. When I called Caldwell Flight Academy at CDW in New
Jersey, I was told three to five hours. I decided not to bother.
Clearly they did not want my business. However, they get points for
being up front about their policies.

A 3 (or 5, or even 7) hour checkout in a light single is not
reasonable. A checkout that takes longer than the flight portion of
an FAA checkride is never reasonable. It's a different story if
transition training is required - a 'checkout' in a tailwheel airplane
for someone who has only flown trikes can reasonably take 5-10 hours.
But if you already have significant make&model experience and the
instructor can't get your checkoput done in an hour, he's either
milking you or incompetent. It's just that simple.

Michael

"MRQB" wrote in message ...
Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another flight
school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student pilots
and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.

1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my training
prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my expense
witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.

How is that BS? It is their plane. They have no obligation to you to
ask you if it is OK with you if they sell their airplane. Did you have
a contract with them that stipulatd that they would keep the same
plane, or is this just an (unrealistic) expectation on your part?

2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
instruction with their instructor

For a student pilot? Dang straight. After you get your ticket this
won't be the case with most garden-variety 172s, but try to rent a
Cessna 206...or a 172 RG...or even a 182. Many places require a
certain number of hours with their instructor.

3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor

Again, why should they? If they are in business to 'sell' training to
pilots, why should they furnish a competitor with the tools necessary
to practice his trade?

4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors not
wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money in
their pocket.

No offense, but I have heard this complaint several times before. Once
from a very good friend of mine, who was complaining that his CFII was
'milking' him for money instead of signing him of for his instrument
checkride immediately. I then went up and shot approaches with him.
There is no possible way he would have passed. None. He simply wasn't
good enough, even though he definitely thought he was.

This is probably your first checkride. This is probably your
instuctors 150th signoff (also having taken at least 4 or 5 himself).
Perhaps he knows a bit more about what level of skill is necessary to
pass that checkride than you do?


I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for not
disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the plane
they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a cretin
date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.

And if they don't have the plane by Wednesday and give me the time to get to
ware i was prior to them getting rid of the plane the suite is going forth
with out discrimination on a contingency basis. Yes it may only be $5,000 in
training spent but will cost me another $1k to $3k at another flight school
and $0 for an attorney to handle this case as the school will be responsible
for all attorney costs + damages.

we will all see what happens this type of thing make flying no fun and i
enjoy flying and don't want to see anyone else get taken by this school but
they say they will make it right lets see if they do Wednesday. No call
today from instructor with airplane update as promised

Sigh. No wonder so many people don't want to be CFIs. You don't like
what happens to you, so you sue. Good call. I certainly wouldn't want
to be your CFI. Also, no offense, but I work at a bank...you have no
idea how many times we hear "I talked to a lawyer yesterday, and he
said that if you don't do XXX, he'll be happy to sue you. So what will
it be?" Our answer is *always* give your lawyer a call...but these
people never seem to follow through with it. Wonder why?

What makes flying no fun is often people with a sense of entitlement.
They tend to make bad pilots. I'm not a CFI yet (I am an AGI), but
I'll be one within the month. And if a student displayed the kind of
attitude problems I see in your post here, I'd be very reluctant to
fly with you. Why?

1. Your belief that you know your flying skills at this point better
than your CFI (as evidenced by your statement that your CFI is milking
you). Very hard to instruct somebody who thinks you are trying to rip
you off. Very hard to teach somebody who thinks they know 'enough' and
don't need what I am teaching.

2. Your unrealistic expectations (like the plane you like will be
available whenever you want it). This can ve a very dangerous flight
attitude. Does this come through in your flying? Do you 'expect' to
get cleared into Class B as soon as you call them up, and become upset
when they tell you to stay clear of Class B for 5 minutes while they
deal with other traffic?

3. Your insistence that you will sue when you don't get your way. Why
would I as an instuctor want to egt involved with somebody who says he
will sue whoever ****es him off? Next time I **** you off, will you
sue me? CFIs make $20 an hour (if they are lucky). They aren't geting
rich off of you. Most FBOs and flight schools aren't raking in the
dough either....they aren't retiring in Bermuda off of your $75 an
hour rental of their 172. It simply wouldn't be worth the downside for
me to fly with you.

Now maybe this post really doesn't reflect how you are. But it really
doesn't show you in a very positive light.

Cheers,

Cap





"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
link.net...
Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking
advantage
of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw that
can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced but
It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing everybody!!

I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him (literally
and
financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big jets
or
small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is there
for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would have
got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the people at
the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to make
a
living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.

Travis

"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you deal
with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take advantage
of
beginning or new pilots.


"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om...
When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to $175
range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option would
be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to spray
correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
before...


Jon Kraus wrote in message
.. .
I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful, uneventful
hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating of
ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for
free.
I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my pants).
Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid the
bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message thlink.net...

Regarding 2) In your opening paragraph, you said that you were a student
pilot in search of a new school. Of course they are going to want to spend
some training time with you before signing you off for solo in one of their
planes. Anything else would be irresponsible. While the FAA doesn't care,


actually, the faa _does_ ca

61.195
(d) Limitations on endorsements. A flight instructor may not endorse
a:

(1) Student pilot's certificate or logbook for solo flight privileges,
unless that flight instructor has --

(i) Given that student the flight training required for solo flight
privileges required by this part; and


and--

61.87
(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a
single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for
a single-engine airplane rating must receive and log flight training
for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning
and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure
procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power
combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a
stall, and recovery from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.


now, how you can cover all of the above in a 1-hour checkout is a
mystery
to me. (if the student is competent, i can usually get it done in 3-4
hours or
so, but that's about a minimum).

mho,

g_a

61.87

You nailed it.

I know anyone would be angry if this happned to them but it is wednesday and
still no plane go figure.


"gross_arrow" wrote in message
m...
"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
thlink.net...

Regarding 2) In your opening paragraph, you said that you were a student
pilot in search of a new school. Of course they are going to want to
spend
some training time with you before signing you off for solo in one of
their
planes. Anything else would be irresponsible. While the FAA doesn't
care,


actually, the faa _does_ ca

61.195
(d) Limitations on endorsements. A flight instructor may not endorse
a:

(1) Student pilot's certificate or logbook for solo flight privileges,
unless that flight instructor has --

(i) Given that student the flight training required for solo flight
privileges required by this part; and


and--

61.87
(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a
single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training for
a single-engine airplane rating must receive and log flight training
for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning
and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure
procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power
combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication of a
stall, and recovery from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.


now, how you can cover all of the above in a 1-hour checkout is a
mystery
to me. (if the student is competent, i can usually get it done in 3-4
hours or
so, but that's about a minimum).

mho,

g_a

61.87

"Captain Wubba" wrote in message
om...
"MRQB" wrote in message
...
Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another
flight
school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student
pilots
and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.

1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my
training
prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my
expense
witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.

How is that BS? It is their plane. They have no obligation to you to
ask you if it is OK with you if they sell their airplane. Did you have
a contract with them that stipulatd that they would keep the same
plane, or is this just an (unrealistic) expectation on your part?

I Paid block time on that aircraft!!!!


2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
instruction with their instructor

For a student pilot? Dang straight. After you get your ticket this
won't be the case with most garden-variety 172s, but try to rent a
Cessna 206...or a 172 RG...or even a 182. Many places require a
certain number of hours with their instructor.

I have no problem with extra instruction the more the better right.


3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor

Again, why should they? If they are in business to 'sell' training to
pilots, why should they furnish a competitor with the tools necessary
to practice his trade?

4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors
not
wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money
in
their pocket.

No offense, but I have heard this complaint several times before. Once
from a very good friend of mine, who was complaining that his CFII was
'milking' him for money instead of signing him of for his instrument
checkride immediately. I then went up and shot approaches with him.
There is no possible way he would have passed. None. He simply wasn't
good enough, even though he definitely thought he was.

Was told by my CFI that he was going to make my check ride appointment and
that i was ready.

This is probably your first checkride. This is probably your
instuctors 150th signoff (also having taken at least 4 or 5 himself).
Perhaps he knows a bit more about what level of skill is necessary to
pass that checkride than you do?

Yes this will be my first check ride he said my skill were beyond PTS lots
of practice.


I already spoke with an attorney and i have grounds to sue not only the
school but the owner of the plane and the flight instructor as well for
not
disclosing to me weeks in advance that they were getting rid of the
plane
they knew prior to my solo that they would only have the plane to a
cretin
date if they would have told me that prior i would not have paid them a
penny more and went some ware else and only been out a few hundred.

And if they don't have the plane by Wednesday and give me the time to
get to
ware i was prior to them getting rid of the plane the suite is going
forth
with out discrimination on a contingency basis. Yes it may only be
$5,000 in
training spent but will cost me another $1k to $3k at another flight
school
and $0 for an attorney to handle this case as the school will be
responsible
for all attorney costs + damages.

we will all see what happens this type of thing make flying no fun and i
enjoy flying and don't want to see anyone else get taken by this school
but
they say they will make it right lets see if they do Wednesday. No call
today from instructor with airplane update as promised

Sigh. No wonder so many people don't want to be CFIs. You don't like
what happens to you, so you sue. Good call. I certainly wouldn't want
to be your CFI. Also, no offense, but I work at a bank...you have no
idea how many times we hear "I talked to a lawyer yesterday, and he
said that if you don't do XXX, he'll be happy to sue you. So what will
it be?" Our answer is *always* give your lawyer a call...but these
people never seem to follow through with it. Wonder why?

I like my cfi he is a exelent instructor.


What makes flying no fun is often people with a sense of entitlement.
They tend to make bad pilots. I'm not a CFI yet (I am an AGI), but
I'll be one within the month. And if a student displayed the kind of
attitude problems I see in your post here, I'd be very reluctant to
fly with you. Why?

1. Your belief that you know your flying skills at this point better
than your CFI (as evidenced by your statement that your CFI is milking
you). Very hard to instruct somebody who thinks you are trying to rip
you off. Very hard to teach somebody who thinks they know 'enough' and
don't need what I am teaching.

Not saying that my instructor is milking me the school is for airplane
rental. And no i dont belive my flying skills are any better than my cfi has
told me that they are. They are better than PST.

2. Your unrealistic expectations (like the plane you like will be
available whenever you want it). This can ve a very dangerous flight
attitude. Does this come through in your flying? Do you 'expect' to
get cleared into Class B as soon as you call them up, and become upset
when they tell you to stay clear of Class B for 5 minutes while they
deal with other traffic?

I can be tollerant of a lot of things If it was a mechanical problem idd be
ok with that. but they made the choice to get rid of the plane prior to
taking delivery of their new one. I know in my business i dont get rid of a
tool unless i get my new one first. Also idd stay out of Class B if told to.


3. Your insistence that you will sue when you don't get your way. Why
would I as an instuctor want to egt involved with somebody who says he
will sue whoever ****es him off? Next time I **** you off, will you
sue me? CFIs make $20 an hour (if they are lucky). They aren't geting
rich off of you. Most FBOs and flight schools aren't raking in the
dough either....they aren't retiring in Bermuda off of your $75 an
hour rental of their 172. It simply wouldn't be worth the downside for
me to fly with you.

Now maybe this post really doesn't reflect how you are. But it really
doesn't show you in a very positive light.

I am not sue happy at all!!!!!!! i just think that they should have
disclosed to me when they found out that the plane wouold not be avaiable to
me and the date it would be sold they know since 1st of october that it
would be going away mid november. and if i would have known that idd have
cut my losses early and went to another flight school. You Would Also....
Untill you are in my shoes dont judge me when and if you ever are ill know
how you feel. i know if at all i learned a lot from this call it a expencive
lesson.



Cheers,

Cap





"Travis Marlatte" wrote in message
link.net...
Really? I have never felt that someone was even thinking of taking
advantage
of me. Maybe I cast an air of confidence so they don't try it ... naw
that
can't be. There certainly are airports and FBOs that are high priced
but
It's not directed at inexperienced pilots. They're screwing
everybody!!

I doubt that MRQB was the victim of line service soaking him
(literally
and
financially). It was either a lack of focus (same technique for big
jets
or
small planes) or training (Oh, is that what that garden sprayer is
there
for?!). A little inquiry on his part before the deice probably would
have
got the service he needed for a reasonable cost. In general, the
people at
the Lansing airport, like most others, are fantastic. They do have to
make
a
living and, for the most part, charge appropriately.

Travis

"MRQB" wrote in message
...
I noticed in aviation that you need to be very very careful who you
deal
with. There are a lot of scammers out there that like to take
advantage
of
beginning or new pilots.


"Lynne Miller" wrote in message
om...
When we de-ice the jet in Boston, it's about $500. That IS for a
Gulfstream. As such, I would expect yours to be in the $100 to
$175
range. The $12.50 per gallon is fair, though. A very good option
would
be that the person who sprayed the aircraft did not know how to
spray
correctly, and as such used WAY too much glycol. It's been done
before...


Jon Kraus wrote in message
.. .
I decided to fly from my home north of Indianapolis Indiana to
visit
family in Lansing Michigan. My trip up was a beautiful,
uneventful
hour
and a half flight. I was to stay until Friday morning and then
return.
The weather on Friday made it impossible to return because of
icing
issues. No problem better safe than sorry right... Saturday
dawned
much better. Got to the airport to find the plane with a coating
of
ice
that needed to be removed. My FBO at home takes care of this for
free.
I
wasn't expecting it to be free but when they finished the job
and
presented me with a $462.50 bill I about lost it (**** my
pants).
Hell
the plane rental for the 3 days wasn't even that much. I paid
the
bill
and vowed to not go there again.

Any one got any stories of being ripped off? I feel the need to
commiserate... ;-)

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA

"MRQB" wrote in message ...
"Captain Wubba" wrote in message
om...
"MRQB" wrote in message
...
Yes i have been burned by a flight school and insearch for another
flight
school i have found out that they like to take advantage of student
pilots
and private pilots for check outs of aircraft.

1, Flight school got rid of their plane 7/8ths the way through my
training
prior to getting new one but requires a check out of new plane at my
expense
witch is B.S. and i explained that to them.

How is that BS? It is their plane. They have no obligation to you to
ask you if it is OK with you if they sell their airplane. Did you have
a contract with them that stipulatd that they would keep the same
plane, or is this just an (unrealistic) expectation on your part?

I Paid block time on that aircraft!!!!

And? Did they transfer the block time to the new aircraft? Or refund
the balance? If not, *then* you have a beef. If they did, then roll
with the punches...what would have done had some other student
collapsed the nose gear on your plane and sent it to the shop for a
month? Sued the student? Sued the FBO? Sued the airport?



2, will not check you out in an aircraft unless you have 5 to 7 hours of
instruction with their instructor

For a student pilot? Dang straight. After you get your ticket this
won't be the case with most garden-variety 172s, but try to rent a
Cessna 206...or a 172 RG...or even a 182. Many places require a
certain number of hours with their instructor.

I have no problem with extra instruction the more the better right.


3, will not let you fly their plane with your instructor

Again, why should they? If they are in business to 'sell' training to
pilots, why should they furnish a competitor with the tools necessary
to practice his trade?

4, And lots of other stuff i ran in to in my situation like instructors
not
wanting to sign you off for check ride without 10 hours of your money
in
their pocket.

No offense, but I have heard this complaint several times before. Once
from a very good friend of mine, who was complaining that his CFII was
'milking' him for money instead of signing him of for his instrument
checkride immediately. I then went up and shot approaches with him.
There is no possible way he would have passed. None. He simply wasn't
good enough, even though he definitely thought he was.

Was told by my CFI that he was going to make my check ride appointment and
that i was ready.

This is probably your first checkride. This is probably your
instuctors 150th signoff (also having taken at least 4 or 5 himself).
Perhaps he knows a bit more about what level of skill is necessary to
pass that checkride than you do?

Yes this will be my first check ride he said my skill were beyond PTS lots
of practice.

Then if your skill level is truly PP-ASEL level or better, then this
should only take a few hours familiarization in the new plane. Use it
as a learning opportunity to gete xposed to different kinds of
aircraft and their systems. If you were going to continue to use this
FBO to rent from, you'd need the checkout in this plane anyway, right?
And if you went to a different FBO, they'd expect a checkout in
whatever plane they had.



Sigh. No wonder so many people don't want to be CFIs. You don't like
what happens to you, so you sue. Good call. I certainly wouldn't want
to be your CFI. Also, no offense, but I work at a bank...you have no
idea how many times we hear "I talked to a lawyer yesterday, and he
said that if you don't do XXX, he'll be happy to sue you. So what will
it be?" Our answer is *always* give your lawyer a call...but these
people never seem to follow through with it. Wonder why?

I like my cfi he is a exelent instructor.


What makes flying no fun is often people with a sense of entitlement.
They tend to make bad pilots. I'm not a CFI yet (I am an AGI), but
I'll be one within the month. And if a student displayed the kind of
attitude problems I see in your post here, I'd be very reluctant to
fly with you. Why?

1. Your belief that you know your flying skills at this point better
than your CFI (as evidenced by your statement that your CFI is milking
you). Very hard to instruct somebody who thinks you are trying to rip
you off. Very hard to teach somebody who thinks they know 'enough' and
don't need what I am teaching.

Not saying that my instructor is milking me the school is for airplane
rental. And no i dont belive my flying skills are any better than my cfi has
told me that they are. They are better than PST.

2. Your unrealistic expectations (like the plane you like will be
available whenever you want it). This can ve a very dangerous flight
attitude. Does this come through in your flying? Do you 'expect' to
get cleared into Class B as soon as you call them up, and become upset
when they tell you to stay clear of Class B for 5 minutes while they
deal with other traffic?

I can be tollerant of a lot of things If it was a mechanical problem idd be
ok with that. but they made the choice to get rid of the plane prior to
taking delivery of their new one. I know in my business i dont get rid of a
tool unless i get my new one first. Also idd stay out of Class B if told to.


3. Your insistence that you will sue when you don't get your way. Why
would I as an instuctor want to egt involved with somebody who says he
will sue whoever ****es him off? Next time I **** you off, will you
sue me? CFIs make $20 an hour (if they are lucky). They aren't geting
rich off of you. Most FBOs and flight schools aren't raking in the
dough either....they aren't retiring in Bermuda off of your $75 an
hour rental of their 172. It simply wouldn't be worth the downside for
me to fly with you.

Now maybe this post really doesn't reflect how you are. But it really
doesn't show you in a very positive light.

I am not sue happy at all!!!!!!! i just think that they should have
disclosed to me when they found out that the plane wouold not be avaiable to
me and the date it would be sold they know since 1st of october that it
would be going away mid november. and if i would have known that idd have
cut my losses early and went to another flight school. You Would Also....
Untill you are in my shoes dont judge me when and if you ever are ill know
how you feel. i know if at all i learned a lot from this call it a expencive
lesson.

No, I would *not* have also 'cut my losses'. I wouldn't have seen them
as losses to be cut. The goal here isn't to get a piece of paper from
the FAA. the goal is to lbe proficient enough to *deserve* the
privelege of flying an airplane. This is an opportunity...not an
opportunity to sue. You put your situation out here for others to
comment upon, not me. And the response seems fairly uniform...many
pilots here don't think you have a productive attitude. Want to know
why a new Cessna 172 costs $200,000? Many reasons, but one is
insurance, which is very expensive largely due to people who are quick
to sue others whenever they do something stupid or become unhappy
about something.

I hear a strong sense of entitlement in your posts. That is *not* a
good attitude for a pilot to have. One of the most important
attributes of a pilot is the ability to roll with the punches, and
adapt to unfavorable situations with calm and reason. That attitude is
not displayed here. Instead of 'Wow. OK...the plane is gone. How do I
deal with this? A bit annoying, but let's see how I can finish up in a
reasonable amount of time.' I hear 'The plane is gone??? You get that
plane back or I'll sue you! I deserved to finish my training in that
plane! You guys are mistreating me.'

Does that attitude reflect the way you fly? If it dos, I wouldn't get
near an airplane with you. Not as a passenger, not as an instructor.

This is a chance to show your skills at dealing with new and mildly
adverse situations. Use it to learn something new, and stop with the
unproductive blame.

Cheers,

Cap