Pilot, possibly intoxicated, flies around Philly for 3 hours

"John T" wrote in message
ws.com...
What do you propose for privately owned airfields on private property?

What do people do for their garages (i.e., large trucks...).

Where do people park their 3/4 ton pickup trucks and large panel trucks?

"Dave Stadt" wrote:

I don't need an ID badge to drive my car why should I need one to
fly my plane?

Uh, what's that state-issued thingy with your picture on it, if not an
ID badge?

Rob

Jonathan Goodish wrote in message ...
In what way would these measures protect the aircraft owners
at such airports from theft and vandalism? (hint: at work, I park
in a lot which is surrounded by a tall fence, gates operated by
individual badges, patrolled by security and under security camera
surveillance. we STILL have a problem with theft and vandalism.)

Having no security is unreasonable in my opinion.

Well, I don't think my airport has no security. My plane is in a
locked hangar. My plane is locked. It requires a key to start.
Perhaps most important, it's a community, where pilots know each
other and someone unfamiliar is watched and questioned if it seems
warrented.

If your local law enforcement was unwilling to respond to reports
of suspicious persons asking suspicious questions, perhaps your
local pilots need to cultivate better relationships with your
local law enforcement. "Law Enforcement Day at the Local Pilot's
Meeting" and a few boxes of donuts might go a ways.

having no
deterrent security at an airport is like leaving my car unlocked with
the keys in the ignition.

Um, actually, I think leaving your car unlocked with the keys
in the ignition is more like leaving your plane unlocked with the
keys in the ignition.

I also don't think that you can have one standard for larger airport and
another for smaller ones.

Why not? How far do you take this "one standard" bit? Should we
impose one standard for the security of federal buildings and small
businesses, even though the purposes they serve and the traffic they
handle is vastly different? Should we have one standard for all
public gatherings -- pro football games vs. my child's dance recital?

Makes not a jot of sense to me, but that seems to be what you're
suggesting for airports.

For example, it's okay to have no security
beyond a padlock at Podunk Field, Midwest, but I doubt that you'd agree
that it would be okay to have no security at BOS or LGA or JFK.

I think that's an eminently sensible situation. The planes which
frequent Podunk Field vs. LGA or even SUS have different capabilities.
The population is different.

Eventually, the bad guys are going to figure out that there is no
security at Podunk Field and capitalize on that fact.

Maybe. Maybe they are going to capitalize on a whole host of
freedoms of our society which are also security risks. How far
are we willing to go in sacrificing myriad daily freedoms because
they could, in theory, be exploited to cause harms? For example,
do you feel that rental of large trucks should immediately be banned
and sale restricted to those who have undergone special background
checks? Eventually, the bad guys are going to figure out that what
worked for McVeigh and in Africa could work here for them.

I'm sorry, I just don't see what is so unreasonable about controlled
access to the field. I don't see what is so unreasonable about ID
badges. I don't see what is so unreasonable about surveillence.

Then I will try to spell it out for you, though I lack confidence
in my abilities.

What is so unreasonable is that it would pose a large burden of
cost for what seems to be a very negligable benefit.

Nothing stops a determined terrorist from gaining access to a
secured field which requires ID badges. Yes, he could cut the
fence and take his chances with the typical low quality of
surveillance cameras and their monitors. But why?

All he needs is a confederate who has cleared the required security
and obtained the required credentials.

Do you really think it's reasonable to put thousands of small
airports out of business and ground tens of thousands of pilots
with your "reasonable" security measures, when they would do little
or nothing to deter a well-planned attempt?

Sheesh! If I've ever heard of an "I've got mine, Screw You"
attitude!

Sydney

In article , "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:

Quite the contrary, my suggestions are quite reasonable, not expensive
(except for the surveillence), and far from useless.

Then you haven't priced any of them lately. Fencing alone could run 100
grand at
a small airport.


And it's only a deterrent; not a failsafe system.

not even a deterrent, just a tiny speed bump.

--
Bob Noel

"Bob Noel" wrote in message
...
In article , "Tom Sixkiller"
wrote:

Quite the contrary, my suggestions are quite reasonable, not
expensive
(except for the surveillence), and far from useless.

Then you haven't priced any of them lately. Fencing alone could run
100
grand at
a small airport.


And it's only a deterrent; not a failsafe system.

not even a deterrent, just a tiny speed bump.

I call still lug my 51 year old ass over one of 'em.

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

What do people do for their garages (i.e., large trucks...).

Around here, they're typically parked in large open lots. A good example would
be the local UPS depot.

Where do people park their 3/4 ton pickup trucks and large panel trucks?

Well, my truck is only 1/4 ton, but it's in my driveway. The nearest U-haul outfit
is an open lot on route 35.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

Tom Sixkiller wrote:

I call still lug my 51 year old ass over one of 'em.

Cowboy boots help. The toes fit well in chainlink.

George Patterson
Great discoveries are not announced with "Eureka!". What's usually said is
"Hummmmm... That's interesting...."

"Rob Perkins" wrote in message
...
"Dave Stadt" wrote:

I don't need an ID badge to drive my car why should I need one to
fly my plane?

Uh, what's that state-issued thingy with your picture on it, if not an
ID badge?

Rob

It sure as hell isn't an ID badge.

Jonathan Goodish wrote in message ...

Fact is, you do need an ID badge to drive your car, it's called a
driver's license.

Um...so, since I need a pilot's license to fly plus another
form of govm't issued photo ID --- you're actually arguing
that no further identification is necessary?

Jonathan, your analogies seem to need a little buffing-up.

What I'm hearing from you detractors is that you don't believe there
should be ANY security at GA fields

Really? Where are you hearing that?

What I'm hearing is that I, and apparently some others, don't
feel your suggested security measures are "reasonable".

It seems rather a cognitive leap to go from "they don't
think my ideas are reasonable" to "they don't believe
there should be ANY security at GA fields.

snip

Just as with securing your house, nothing you do is going to stop the
determined burglar. What you can do things to make execution of the
crime more difficult and time consuming while still retaining
unrestricted movement in your house.

I really think the "house" analogy for an airport is not quite
apt.

A public-use airport is not a house. It is a business, and
as such must provide access to everyone who needs to use it.
Charter customers, line boys, student pilots, flight instructors,
custodians, mechanics so forth and so on.

Therein lies the weakest point of any security system for a public-
use facility. It's often not strangers breaking down the doors,
but people who've been granted access who commit illegal acts.

So exactly how much deterrent value does that fence and security
system provide, and how does that compare to its cost and the
effect that cost will have on small airports and the small businesses
trying to make a living there, if you try to enforce "one standard
to fit all"?

At some airports, security systems such as you describe seem
justified and reasonable. At others, why on earth?

Cheers,
Sydney

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
...

"Rob Perkins" wrote in message
...
"Dave Stadt" wrote:

I don't need an ID badge to drive my car why should I need one to
fly my plane?

Uh, what's that state-issued thingy with your picture on it, if not an
ID badge?

Rob

It sure as hell isn't an ID badge.


If it's in your wallet in your back pocket, would that be "mooning" someone?