Question about spoilers and pitch stability

Andreas, this is the US where I've had highly experienced instructors tell me that a landing where the tailwheel touches first is dangerous and likely to damage the glider.

Being a dick I just told them they were wrong and continue to land gliders that way.

Of course, when you are teaching no-spoiler, slipped patterns to a landing in a Grob 103, minimum energy landings are the least of your problems! Have to get that main wheel down before running off the 9000' runway!

Cheers

Kirk
66

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 3:18:05 PM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
Andreas, this is the US where I've had highly experienced instructors tell me that a landing where the tailwheel touches first is dangerous and likely to damage the glider.



Being a dick I just told them they were wrong and continue to land gliders that way.



Of course, when you are teaching no-spoiler, slipped patterns to a landing in a Grob 103, minimum energy landings are the least of your problems! Have to get that main wheel down before running off the 9000' runway!



Cheers



Kirk

66

I've more than once heard "highly experienced instructors" tell their students "only crazy people go cross country".

As long as it's so easy to meet the FAA requirements for glider instructor certificates, we'll keep hearing these things from them.

Hi Kirk,

On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:18:05 -0800 (PST), "kirk.stant"
wrote:

Andreas, this is the US where I've had highly experienced instructors tell me that a landing where the tailwheel touches first is
dangerous and likely to damage the glider.

Being a dick I just told them they were wrong and continue to land gliders that way.


How dare you....!
As we would say in German: Pfui...!


Of course, when you are teaching no-spoiler, slipped patterns to a landing in a Grob 103, minimum energy landings are the least of your problems!
Have to get that main wheel down before running off the 9000' runway!

These things are really being taught to student pilots?
Faszinating.
Do they also teach them no-elevator landings?


No-spoiler landings are my hobby, I'm doing them in the ASK-21 and the
Ka-8 at my club's annual precision landing competition all the time.
Cannot remember when I missed the mark (main-wheel touchdown) for more
than 70 ft.

But the safety margin is very, very thin and does not allow any
mistake. Not suited at all for a student pilot.
But they are fun and guarantee the admiration of the comrades if you
and your glider happen to survive. Which, unfortunately, is not always
the case...


Cheers
Andreas

On Thursday, February 14, 2013 7:41:44 PM UTC-8, Andreas Maurer wrote:
Hi Kirk, On Thu, 14 Feb 2013 14:18:05 -0800 (PST), "kirk.stant" wrote: Andreas, this is the US where I've had highly experienced instructors tell me that a landing where the tailwheel touches first is dangerous and likely to damage the glider. Being a dick I just told them they were wrong and continue to land gliders that way. How dare you.....! As we would say in German: Pfui...! Of course, when you are teaching no-spoiler, slipped patterns to a landing in a Grob 103, minimum energy landings are the least of your problems! Have to get that main wheel down before running off the 9000' runway! These things are really being taught to student pilots? Faszinating. Do they also teach them no-elevator landings? No-spoiler landings are my hobby, I'm doing them in the ASK-21 and the Ka-8 at my club's annual precision landing competition all the time. Cannot remember when I missed the mark (main-wheel touchdown) for more than 70 ft. But the safety margin is very, very thin and does not allow any mistake. Not suited at all for a student pilot. But they are fun and guarantee the admiration of the comrades if you and your glider happen to survive. Which, unfortunately, is not always the case... Cheers Andreas

Slips to landing are part of the Practical Test Standard in the USA, so yes, they teach students to do it.

On Friday, February 15, 2013 2:33:10 PM UTC+1, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

Slips to landing are part of the Practical Test Standard in the USA, so yes, they teach students to do it.

Slips to a landing are one thing. No spoiler landings are a different beast altogether. First of all, the slip to a landing is a legacy of draggy gliders with poor glide path control (2-22, 2-33s come to mind). Fun to do and perfectly safe. But what about a glider where slips are not recommended? My LS-6 specifically says that slips are not very effective and are not recommended? I've tried them and they are an emergency procedure if you can't use the dive brakes prior to landing or have a really long runway.

So if a student is taking his check ride in a 2-33 (like I did), then a slip to a landing is a nice, fun, interesting way to end a flight. Heck, if you hit a boomer on final, you have to slip it sometimes just to get down in time. But if you show up for your checkride in a DG-1000, and your airfield is 1500' long with trees and powerlines at both ends, it's probably not a very smart thing to do. Demonstrate a slip in the pattern to increase descent rate? Sure, good idea. But make the student carry out the whole pattern and landing without the use of drag devices? Hope you have good hull insurance!

But what do I know - I like to land tail first...

Kirk
66

On Friday, February 15, 2013 6:33:10 AM UTC-7, Uncle Fuzzy wrote:

Slips to landing are part of the Practical Test Standard in the
USA, so yes, they teach students to do it.

Not for long, I'll bet.

There's a realization dawning throughout the FAA that slips to a landing have a razor-thin safety margin in heavy glass 2-seaters. A DG505 was totaled at my airfield during training flight. As a result of that accident and others, memo's are flying.

The DPE's I've discussed this with are adopting a procedure of asking the applicant for a demonstration of glide path control with a slip down to about 100' AGL then using spoilers for the actual landing.

Bill D

On Friday, February 15, 2013 10:54:02 AM UTC-5, Bill D wrote:
On Friday, February 15, 2013 6:33:10 AM UTC-7, Uncle Fuzzy wrote: Slips to landing are part of the Practical Test Standard in the USA, so yes, they teach students to do it. Not for long, I'll bet. There's a realization dawning throughout the FAA that slips to a landing have a razor-thin safety margin in heavy glass 2-seaters. A DG505 was totaled at my airfield during training flight. As a result of that accident and others, memo's are flying. The DPE's I've discussed this with are adopting a procedure of asking the applicant for a demonstration of glide path control with a slip down to about 100' AGL then using spoilers for the actual landing. Bill D

What Bill describes is in accordance with FAA guidance as to the intent of this task contained within the PTS. There is no requirement to slip to land in the PTS as currently applied.
UH

snipNot for long, I'll bet. There's a realization dawning throughout the FAA....

Perhaps they'll get rid of landing on tow as well, (though that's less dicey than a no-kidding slip to land in heavy glass)at the same time!

....The DPE's I've discussed this with are adopting a procedure of asking the applicant for a demonstration of glide path control with a slip down to about 100' AGL then using spoilers for the actual landing. Bill D

Which is how my DPE handled it when I had my check ride a decade or so ago.

What we need to practice are events that are likely to happen and, as far as I know, failure of spoilers to deploy is almost unheard of (the only one I know of is from a glider rapidly descending from a high wave flight with severe icing).

The most likely failures of spoilers are asymmetrical deployment or failure to retract. This is probably why I was taught to deploy and check spoilers close to the field and keep them at least partially deployed during landing.

I witnessed one mishap years ago where the spoiler handle on a Grob 103 broke off, leaving the pilot unable to retract them and with a glide slope that had him land short of the field. Maybe we should simulate that - have the examiner pull full spoilers and see how the pilot copes with that?

Mike

At 17:22 15 February 2013, Mike the Strike wrote:
What we need to practice are events that are likely to happen and, as far
a=
s I know, failure of spoilers to deploy is almost unheard of (the only
one
=
I know of is from a glider rapidly descending from a high wave flight
with
=
severe icing). =20

The most likely failures of spoilers are asymmetrical deployment or
failure=
to retract. This is probably why I was taught to deploy and check
spoiler=
s close to the field and keep them at least partially deployed during
landi=
ng.

I witnessed one mishap years ago where the spoiler handle on a Grob 103
bro=
ke off, leaving the pilot unable to retract them and with a glide slope
tha=
t had him land short of the field. Maybe we should simulate that - have
th=
e examiner pull full spoilers and see how the pilot copes with that?

Mike

If you deploy brakes above max manuvering there is a good chance they
will deflect back over the wing and though there might be some control they

will not retract fully .That is a possible emergency scenario that is worth

training for ,because if you loose control ,say in cloud or extreme
turbulence
the thing you are going to do is pull full brake while you sort out which
way is
up etc,if you haven't pulled the wings off ,the next problem will be flying
with
the brakes as they are.
A modern glass ship will exceed VNE with brakes out about 45degrees nose
down ,if you get sucked into a big cu with full brake and nose well down
you
still may well have a frozen canopy and jammed brakes when you pop out.
Sleep tight little ones