VW?

Jerry Springer wrote:

Leon McAtee wrote:
RU ok wrote in message . ..


Who is left with a reputation of converting and selling hundreds
of VW engines that yield PROVEN equal reliability, performance
at a significantly lower overall LONG TERM cost than suitably
rebuilt aircraft engines... like the 65 hp Continental, for example?

Nobody, if you 'axe' me.


And how many hundreds of Lycosaurs were around in, say, 1930 that
would yield PROVEN reliable performance? You have to start somewhere
if you want to improve things.

Leon McAtee.................looking for the end of the rainbow

VWs have been used in aircraft for years, so your "start somewhere" comment
does not seem to apply here because VWs are no better now than they were
in the early 70's when I used them in an aircraft.

Jerry

Da. Same engine, just new newbies?

Yep. And that'e exactly what happened too. Both heads cracked about
the same time.
Just after the first turn into the pattern (so yes, on take off).
It just went blaaaaaagghhghhhh.

----------------------------------------------------

BT, DT, got the T-shirt. Expensive education: I'm glad you survived the
lesson.
----------------------------------------------------

I don't believe in two seat VW powered planes.

---------------------------------------------------

Like the folks who don't believe the world is round, a lot depends on your
perspective. Lotsa dwarfs out there eager to 'prove' their 2-seater flys jus'
fine :-)

(Cub flew with the A40. Sorta :-)

Light & clean, give it enough wing, two of you can get there behind a big VW.
Not 'big' because you get any more out of it, but Big because lots of
displacement and a chugger cam allows your torque to come in at a speed that
lets you swing a really efficient stick.

Not fast, of course. Hold their feet to the fire, the fast VW crowd will tell
you tales of 10 hours (!!) between valve jobs and pounding out the center-main
in less than 200 hours. Not a problem if you got deep pockets but they tend to
ignore that point when talking to the newbies. Or trying to sell you something
:-)

Engines live according to a rigid set of rules, most of which were defined more
than eighty years ago. Engines are also incapable of lying.

Most folks never quite Get It when it comes to things like thermal limitations,
specific fuel consumption, volumetric efficiency and so on. All they want to
hear is Horsepower... and they don't even understand that.

I've seen hucksters stand right there behind the podium and tell the crowd
their 80hp, normally aspirated converted VW engine only burns three gallons per
hour. The crowd always give you lots of angry looks when you walk out of the
tent laughing. They don't realize they've been listening to the best Stand-Up
Comic since Robin Williams. :-)

-R.S.Hoover

Now, on the other hand, Bruce King has over 200 hours on his modified
Hummelbird (Great Plains 1835 - full 4 cylinder)

OVER 1000 landings.

Last week he finally went out and really investigated the low speed
handling.

Deep stalled, the airplane shows a marked dutch roll.
But it isn't extreme, and the airplane shows no divergence in pitch.
Altitude loss depends on power setting.
Power back, deep stalled decending.
Power up, deep stalled climbing?

It sounds like an interesting ride, but he said it was a lot tamer
than he expected. Maybe I'll get to fly it some day after all?!?


His fist long cross country was San Antonio to Sun N Fun last year.

Then, turned around and flew it to Oshkosh.

Cruise is about 107 without fairings and spats.

Climb is 750 fpm plus.

Taking what HE'S learned, he is finishing up his own first
origional design low wing, all metal VW touring airplane.

I got to look it over last week.
It is a very interesting little airplane.
It growed some compared to the HB, but it is not really a HB
knockoff. Note, the _total parts count_ is 1/3 of the HB.

Way more cockpit room (the HB you wear like Speedos).
8 sq ft more wing area ( 76 sq ft total area?)

Here is a fellow who studied all the previous art that he could
on VW aero engined (including V Dubwer homself)
and decided that the 1/2 VW engine on a Hummel wasn't gonna get it.
So he used the whole mill and has been happy as a camper can be.

I'd call it one of the most sucessful VW projects in a long time.




Richard

Barnyard BOb - over 50 years of successful flight

Which means exactly "Squat". In the bell curve of life some are going
to reach this milestone through nothing more than dumb luck. That
just a simple statistical fact.

Leon McAtee.................looking for the end of the rainbow
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.
You really have your head up your 'bell shaped' ass.
No question in my mind.....

If *YOU* survive 50 years of flight --
It will indisputably be because of DUMB LUCK.

You continue to exemplify nothing more than
a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.


Barnyard BOb --

Richard Lamb wrote:

I don't believe in two seat VW powered planes.

Even with the prop on the "right" end, it just doesn't have the
displacement,
nor the cooling capacity to sustain more than 40 horse - at sea level.

Pity.


Well, so let's see what the alternatives are?

Rotax 503?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Richard:

I thoroughly enjoy the exchanges between
you and Veeduber concerning VW engines.

What's wrong with me? g


Barnyard BOb -- luv my Lycoming

R.S.

Was that the 37 HP, single ignition, A-40 in the Taylor E-2 like I
flew?

I and my cigar smoking instructor didn't weigh 200 lbs total and bird
flew pretty good.

Big John

----clip----

(Cub flew with the A40. Sorta :-)

----clip----

R.S.Hoover

RU ok wrote:

Richard Lamb wrote:

I don't believe in two seat VW powered planes.

Even with the prop on the "right" end, it just doesn't have the
displacement,
nor the cooling capacity to sustain more than 40 horse - at sea level.

Pity.


Well, so let's see what the alternatives are?

Rotax 503?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Richard:

I thoroughly enjoy the exchanges between
you and Veeduber concerning VW engines.

What's wrong with me? g

Barnyard BOb -- luv my Lycoming


Now THAT'S a leading question!



Richard

"RU ok" wrote

HAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA.
You really have your head up your 'bell shaped' ass.
No question in my mind.....

If *YOU* survive 50 years of flight --
It will indisputably be because of DUMB LUCK.

You continue to exemplify nothing more than
a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing.


Barnyard BOb --

He He He. I'm even enjoying this one. If it looks like an airplane engine,
it ain't no damn good! g

I will be the proud "past owner" of a 72 Beetle, as of 8:30 tonight. Damn
thing ate as much gas as my 350 ci. Chevy, and could not pull its' own way
out of a wet paper bag. I won't even start on reliability.
--
Jim in NC


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.608 / Virus Database: 388 - Release Date: 3/3/2004

(Veeduber) wrote in
:

Flying Volkswagens are a bit like Texas midgets. Everything's bigger
in Texas, right? Even their midgets are six feet tall :-)

The VW Myth was spawned following WWII by those Gentleman Aviators of
a literary bent who, after winning the Battle of Britian decided to
tell everyone about it via articles in the aviation magazines. Of
course, twelve issues a year, your sea stories start getting a bit
stale the n-th time they're told so they extended their imaginary
expertise to other areas, such those niffty little flying machines
coming out of Europe.

You know the ones I mean: Kubelwagen engine with a prop on one end
and a Jodel on the other.

Marvelous machine. Fly for pennies. Never a bit of trouble and the
engines were always good for at least a thousand hours.

All that from the Gentleman Aviator's single hop around the pea-patch
followed by a lengthy visit to the club house. No mention of the
erks. Gentleman Aviators do not associate with Other Ranks. Which is
why they failed to mention the annual overhaul, frequent valve jobs
and dismally short service life of those marvelous little engines.
(Another round? Why not!)

Most Americans are dumber than stumps when it comes to engines and
American aviators are among the dumbest of the breed with the Internet
providing daily evidence of their failing. (Yes, you can check the
oil. No, you can't adjust the valves. If you want to watch, go stand
over there.)

It's all about torque and waste heat but to the idiots it's all about
horsepower and top speed.

PEAK output of an engine can be... just about anything. You can see
300hp from an aircooled "Volkswagen" engine for a few seconds (and
note the quotes). But if you're smart enough not to pee on your shoes
you'll pay more attention to the maximum SUSTAINABLE output. As with
all aircooled engines the sustainable output is a function of the
engine's ability to cool itself. But don't get it confused with the
output that gives the greatest interval between overhauls. That figure
is even lower. And it doesn't matter what kind of aircooled engine
we're talking about -- Pratt-Whitney or Weedeater, the laws of
thermodynamics apply.

They say you can't cheat an honest man. The same 'they' also tells us
that a fool and his gold are soon parted. American aviators tend
toward the foolish side of the bell curve when it comes to flying
Volkswagens, preyed upon by slick hustlers chanting peak horsepower
figures.

Every fly a Piet? (The two-holer, not the other one.) Didja notice
the prop is mounted to the clutch-end of the Model A's crankshaft?
Now go look at the typical flying VW, with the prop on the pulley-hub,
a fragile little protrusion barely three-quarters of an inch long,
less than an inch and a half in diameter, hollowed out with metric
threads (the valley comes to a point... makes a dandy stress-riser)
and the circumference notched with a Woodruff keyway that comes to
within sixty thou of those nice, pointy threads.

Look at all the VW's you want. Note the fantastic schemes --
fantastic and EXPENSIVE schemes -- that are used to try and put a
band-aid on a case of terminal cancer, in engineering terms.

The late Steve Wittman knew his onions when it came to engines. He
put the prop on the other end of the crankshaft and blew away the
competition. (We got on like a house afire when we discovered we both
built our engines ass-backwards :-)

Why'd they even do it to begin with? Because with a 20hp 985cc engine
(ie, out of the original Kublewagen; it didn't get the Big Engine
until 1943 and if the early ones never came back to the factory for
overhaul, they never got one installed) you could bolt the engine
directly to the firewall and do away with the engine mount. And the
pulley hub was good for about 200 hours if the load was less than
25hp... no problem when you could replace the crankshaft for $17 every
winter... while the Gentleman Aviators were up at the club house
getting sloshed.

Remember N7EZ and its "68hp" VW engine? I asked Burt where he was
going to find such a thing. From my competitor, of course :-)

Truth is, from 1300 on up, all Type I's use the same heads -- same
amount of fin area. And most of the after-market 'racing' heads have
even LESS. (Go measure it; work it out for yourself. Increase the
thickness of the casting REDUCES the available fin area.) Hottest
part of a VW engine is around the exhaust ports. VW engineers did a
superb job of controlling the air PRESSURE within the plenum to force
the maximum amount of air down thru the finned areas adjacent to
exhaust stacks.

Aluminum is a 'white-short' metal. All metals are mallable. Heat
most metals, they go through a plastic stage before they melt. But
heat aluminum or magnesium, before it melts it will go through a
fragmiable stage during which any stress will cause it to fracture. (
Foundrymen call that 'white shortness' and treat their aluminum
castings with care as they cool.)

The fact aluminim is fragmiable at elevated temperatures is why we pay
so much attention to CHT on our aircraft engines. And VW's. And
Porsches. And anything else with AIR-COOLED aluminum heads. (Liquid
cooled engines are another planet. Don't even think of trying to
transfer your zillion years of Ford V8 experience to a VW unless
you've got a death wish or get off on looking foolish.) 450 degrees
on the Fahrenheit scale is the lower edge of the plastic range for
aluminum. Being slightly denser, forgings can go a little higher but
castings -- such as the VW head -- may be at risk at even LOWER temps
-- it all depends on the alloy and where you monitor the temperature.
The hottest part of the head is the area around the exhaust stack
(which is where VW measures CHT on their fuel injected engines). The
classic ring-type thermocouple under a spark plug can read just about
anything, depending on how much air you blow on it.

As every parent knows, where you stick the thermometer has a lot to do
with the reading. One of the best jokes in aviaition is all the guys
flying around with their oil temp sensor screwed into the wall of the
CRANKCASE. As you can guess, they never have problems with high oil
temps :-) (Volkswagen inserts the OT sensor in the flow of oil
entering the oil pump. Readings at that point typically run about 100
degrees higher than at the dip stick and as much as 150 more than the
sump plate or crankcase.)

Keeping the oil cool in your flying VW is a no-brainer. Just treat it
like an aircraft engine. The cooling arrangement used in CAR engines
is of the by-pass type, meaning things have to get pretty hot before
any cooling takes place. With airplanes you pre-configure the cooling
system prior to take-off, in anticipation of maximum need. Once you
get up to altitude you get things back into the green then close the
shutters enough to keep it there. Alas, trying to use the car cooling
system in a VW powered airplane is almost universal and like putting
the prop on the pulley hub, equally dumb.

Big-Bore Storker! Wow! Over 150hp @ 5000 rpm for an all-up weight of
less than 200 pounds.

And as useless as tits on a boar, with regard to airplanes.

Because it uses the same heads, that's why. Same fin area. Same
maximum cooling co-efficient. Same maximum SUSTAINABLE OUTPUT...
which is about 45hp, depending on the weather.

Sure, more cubes will get you out of the weeds faster. But you'd damn
well be flying the gauges AND have designed your cooling system
accordingly. Because no matter what the displacement or peak output,
your life literally depends on keeping the CHT within bounds.

So it runs your dune buggy all day at 4000 rpm. What's your manifold
pressure?
How often do you do the valves. The same rpm does NOT mean the same
power
output, no matter what they taught you in Auto Shop. The closest
match between a VW engine in a vehicle and one in a plane is to load
your VW bus with about two tons of cargo then go climb the steepest
hill you can manage. Forever.

Time has taught me it's pretty much a waste of time to try and explain
flying Volkswagens. People want to be deluded and their wants are
catered to by a host of marvelously successful hucksters. Those who
discover they've been lied to -- and survive -- tend to be a tad shy.
No one likes to look foolish; obviously the fault must lay with the
engine rather than in themselves.

VW is a car engine. You can convert it to a reliable, durable
aircraft engine, typically better in output and durability than say an
A40-4. But the odd thing is that so few people do. Instead, they
turn it into a dune buggy engine and screw a fan on the pulley hub.
Go figger.

-R.S.Hoover

I'm curious on your take on the AeroVee ???

I have not experience or opinions here, just am contimplating building a
Sonex with the AeroVee engine.

Have they done anything to aleviate any of the issues you've mentioned???

--
ET


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

"Morgans" wrote:

He He He. I'm even enjoying this one. If it looks like an airplane engine,
it ain't no damn good! g


I will be the proud "past owner" of a 72 Beetle, as of 8:30 tonight. Damn
thing ate as much gas as my 350 ci. Chevy, and could not pull its' own way
out of a wet paper bag. I won't even start on reliability.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Sounds a bit like my '48 Hardly-Go-Davidson murdercycle, too.


Barnyard BOb --