how illegal am I?

Icebound wrote:
"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. com...


Nor does it matter if the plane was built before ARROW (whatever that
means). He was wrong on all counts.




ARROW are the current on-board-document rules:

ARROW is not now, nor has it ever been the definitive
on-board list.

You'll not find "W" anywhere in the rules.

The O depends on your aircraft and when it was built.

Your model's type certificate (as ammended by STC's) will often detail
specific requirements

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
Icebound wrote:
"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. com...


Nor does it matter if the plane was built before ARROW (whatever that
means). He was wrong on all counts.




ARROW are the current on-board-document rules:

ARROW is not now, nor has it ever been the definitive
on-board list.

You'll not find "W" anywhere in the rules.

The O depends on your aircraft and when it was built.



Perhaps.

The Houston FSDO has ARROW on their flight test checklist.
http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/hou/Checklst.doc

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Icebound" wrote in message
...

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. com...


Nor does it matter if the plane was built before ARROW (whatever that
means). He was wrong on all counts.



ARROW are the current on-board-document rules:

No, it is now AROW and has been since 1996.



Yes, it is AROW for USA domestic flights, because the FCC has chosen not to
enforce Station Licenses nor Operators Licenses within the USA.

But they cannot extend such a waiver beyond their own borders and must
comply with the International agreements, so it is still ARROW (officially)
for cross-border flights.

"Icebound" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Icebound" wrote in message
...

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. com...


Nor does it matter if the plane was built before ARROW (whatever that
means). He was wrong on all counts.



ARROW are the current on-board-document rules:

No, it is now AROW and has been since 1996.



Yes, it is AROW for USA domestic flights, because the FCC has chosen not
to
enforce Station Licenses nor Operators Licenses within the USA.

But they cannot extend such a waiver beyond their own borders and must
comply with the International agreements, so it is still ARROW
(officially)
for cross-border flights.

Technically, it is only ARROW for cross-border flights *into* the US.
Canada, most Caribbean countries, and Mexico no longer require radio
licenses. Even so, you could technically get around ARROW by simply turning
off your radio when crossing the border. Once on the other side of the
border, you are safe in turning it back on. :-)

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Icebound" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Icebound" wrote in message
...

"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. com...


Nor does it matter if the plane was built before ARROW (whatever
that
means). He was wrong on all counts.



ARROW are the current on-board-document rules:

No, it is now AROW and has been since 1996.



Yes, it is AROW for USA domestic flights, because the FCC has chosen not
to
enforce Station Licenses nor Operators Licenses within the USA.

But they cannot extend such a waiver beyond their own borders and must
comply with the International agreements, so it is still ARROW
(officially)
for cross-border flights.

Technically, it is only ARROW for cross-border flights *into* the US.
Canada, most Caribbean countries, and Mexico no longer require radio
licenses. Even so, you could technically get around ARROW by simply
turning
off your radio when crossing the border. Once on the other side of the
border, you are safe in turning it back on. :-)



That is not correct.

Canada does not require a station license within its borders, just as the
USA does not within its borders. But the Canadian rule only affects
Canadians in Canada, not Canadians flying abroad, nor foreign nationals
flying into Canada.

The same applies for the USA rule... it only applies to US nationals within
the USA.

But any Canadian-registered flight from Canada to the USA (or any other
country) requires a license under Canadian (and International) rules, just
as any US-registered flight from the US to Canada (or any other country)
requires a license under USA (and International) rules.

Canada and the USA were trying to negotiate a reciprocal agreement to avoid
that requirement, but based on the last announcement that I saw, it was
never signed, and the official position remains that the license is
required.

The license requirement does not necessarily have anything to do with the
wishes of the individual countries; It is an international requirement for
International flights. And until the two countries get their act together
and sign the agreement, they are supposed to abide by the international
agreement...ie: a station license *is* required.

Now, having said that, whether they choose to actually *enforce* the rule is
another issue. However, Canadians have been warned by their Radio authority
that their station license paperwork should be up-to-date upon entering the
USA... because of the rule, but also in part because of 9/11 and the extra
level of ID that the license will provide.

I think USA pilots would be wise to do the same in the other direction.
Since there are always areas of tension between the two countries (live beef
exports, free-trade in softwood lumber, etc.), not having the license (in
both directions) gives politicians one more easy target when they may decide
to make a retaliatory statement: "hey, here is a rule we can enforce to
make life difficult for the other side for a while..."

"Icebound" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

"Icebound" wrote in message
...

....snip...
Technically, it is only ARROW for cross-border flights *into* the US.
Canada, most Caribbean countries, and Mexico no longer require radio
licenses. ...snip...

Oh, and by the way, Canada still DOES require the Radio *operators* license.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
Icebound wrote:
"Dave Stadt" wrote in message
. com...


Nor does it matter if the plane was built before ARROW (whatever that
means). He was wrong on all counts.




ARROW are the current on-board-document rules:

ARROW is not now, nor has it ever been the definitive
on-board list.

You'll not find "W" anywhere in the rules.

The O depends on your aircraft and when it was built.

Your model's type certificate (as ammended by STC's) will often detail
specific requirements


---

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section [para (d) is for
helicopters], no person may operate a civil aircraft without complying with
the operating limitations specified in the approved Airplane or Rotorcraft
Flight Manual, markings, and placards, or as otherwise prescribed by the
certificating authority of the country of registry.

(b) No person may operate a U.S.-registered civil aircraft-

(1) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is required by §21.5
of this chapter unless there is available in the aircraft a current,
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or the manual provided for in
§121.141(b); and

(2) For which an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual is not required by
§21.5 of this chapter, unless there is available in the aircraft a current
approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual, approved manual material,
markings, and placards, or any combination thereof.

---

You might not find Weight and Balance in the rules specifically, but how do
I prove on a ramp check that I am "...complying with the operating
limitation specified in the .... manual..", if I do not have a certified
document that says how heavy this aircraft is with its current equipment,
and where the empty C of G is, and how the fuel, passenger, and cargo loads
affect the C of G???

Icebound wrote:

The O depends on your aircraft and when it was built.




Perhaps.

The Houston FSDO has ARROW on their flight test checklist.
http://www.faa.gov/fsdo/hou/Checklst.doc

Yep, but you'll notice they don't backup the ARROW assertion
with any reg cites like they do elsewhere.

When an AFM is required by the regs, it includes the W&B.
When an AFM is not required by the regs, you better go figure
out form the type certificate what exactly is required. I've
even got to carry flight manual supplements for some STC's to
supplement the non-existant flight manual.

Icebound wrote:

You might not find Weight and Balance in the rules specifically, but how do
I prove on a ramp check that I am "...complying with the operating
limitation specified in the .... manual..", if I do not have a certified
document that says how heavy this aircraft is with its current equipment,
and where the empty C of G is, and how the fuel, passenger, and cargo loads
affect the C of G???

That doesn't mean it has to be in the aircraft. You're supposed to do that
in preflight planning along with the catchall "finding out runway lengths,
alternates, and ALL AVAILABLE INFORMATION" but it's a work of fiction to
extend that into meaning all that stuff has to be then loaded into the aircraft.

To be practical, the AFM most likely has to include the W&B info (then why
a seperate letter in the mnemonic?). My plane has the "manual material,
placards, and markings" section of your clause. There is no Flight Manual.

"Icebound" wrote in message
...

But any Canadian-registered flight from Canada to the USA (or any other
country) requires a license under Canadian (and International) rules, just
as any US-registered flight from the US to Canada (or any other country)
requires a license under USA (and International) rules.


Good points all. IIRC there was a recent case where a US-registered flight
returning to the US was dinged for not having a radio license, but that
flight had not filed a flight plan, did not check in with Customs, landed at
a private airfield, and then tried to evade Customs and Immigration, so they
were trying to throw the book at him. I don't know if they made any of the
charges stick, however.