US Tasking? Are way too many TATs/MATs are being called vs. NOTENOUGH ASSIGNED TASKS (3% in 2013)

On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 6:50:16 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 5:40:02 PM UTC-4, Bill D wrote:

Without commenting on a particular task, I humbly suggest the real problem is contest attendance - or rather the lack of it.







Asking pilots at_a_contest about task preferences is looking through the wrong end of the telescope. For meaningful data - and to grow contest flying - one should be asking those NOT attending contests what sort of tasks THEY prefer.



This has been looked at quite a bit. The most common barrier to contest participation is the same as it is for the rest of soaring- time and money..



What you say is entirely correct in the general sense but it applies equally to every other racing sport. A neighbor, who is by no means wealthy, trailers his drag boat to 20 or so races a year held all around the country. Another does the same for motocross racing.

Out of 15,000 or so glider pilots in the US, you need less than a hundred additional competitors to exceed what the existing contest infrastructure (Airport space, tow planes)could accommodate. I suspect at least that many have the time and money to compete. If they could be persuaded to do so, it would turn the situation around.

But the question was about what TASK the non-participants prefer. I think the current task selections may have something to do with the problem. The biggest objection I hear is, "I don't understand the rules or tasks." Or, "Why travel? It's just like the OLC."

If you want these people to participate, you have to give them a reason. I think real racing tasks could be that reason.

On Wednesday, 6 August 2014 13:47:40 UTC-6, Sean Fidler wrote:
Task call today from USA Region 9 (Nephi, UT)...



Wait for it.....................



3, 30 mile radius turn cylinders (THATS RIGHT, 3 THIRTY MILE RADIUS).



Photo of task sheet (sent by my spy) he https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx7K...p=docslist_api



The AM report for the day actually say's the words "LETS RACE!" ROTFL. --http://www.ssa.org/Contests?cid=2268... gion+9+North



Ready, set, go............fly anywhere you want like OLC and have fun! But it's no race folks. Not even remotely close to a race. That's for sure..



Weather considerations for the task selection you may ask? Read it for yourself...



"Just finished the pilot meeting, spirits are high and optimism is high for a great day of racing.

One task for all classes; 02 Start, 78 Wayne Wonder, 43 Milford and 22 Delta Muni all turnpoints have 30 mile radi.

Nominal 280, maximum 402.6 and minium 182.

Duration 3:30

Task B is same as A but 3:00 duration.

Weather is forecated to be 4-6F warmer, trigger temperature passed by launch, TOL 14-15K+, lift 5 knots average+, cumulus clouds should be present and winds at TOL 15-18 MPH.

Tasks on SSA tracker site, happy viewing

Let's race" (--- yes they really said that!)



I rest my case.



:-)



Sean

I do not have time to respond with the level of detail anyone here would require and I am trying not to respond emotionally with a '**** off you have no clue what you are talking about since you are not here understanding all the parameters we are dealing with'

I have one request for Sean; please take down the link you posted for the task sheet. It has peoples personal telephone numbers, including mine, on it that are volunteering so that 37-38 pilots and their crew can have fun, race gliders and experience central UT. Your disregard for privacy and complete lack of understanding on our situation is appalling and disgusting.

On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 1:57:31 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:

So, in this case, it is obviously not the weather that resulted in the 3 massive 30 mile radius Turn Area
task, nor is it the handicap range (LS-3 or Discus is lowest I think).

Center of the first turnpoint was inside a line of OD and rain and sits at the far end of a pretty high escarpment that is 20 x 50 miles and totally unlandable except for the airport at the turnpoint on the far side (Wayne Wonderland). Second turnpoint (Milford) was in the clear. Third turnpoint (Delta) was 25 miles into a blue hole in the desert. Around 20x60 miles in the center of the task area was a giant mass of OD with rain and lightening. The exact location of the OD was not predictable with any certainty at time of launch.

The tasking in general appeared to be into the best weather - most everywhere else was OD'd or blue. As I write this the sky is full of thunderstorms in most directions as far as the eye can see and then some.

Maybe not a poster-child for Assigned Task racing, meteorologically speaking. You might've been able to call an AST but the landout/abandon rate would've been pretty high unless you got lucky with all the widespread OD. Even with a much shorter task you would have had a decent chance of sending the fleet into driving rain or the blue over open desert. High desert weather can be unpredictable because it's so dynamic. On a non-monsoon day Nephi can support some awesome Assigned Tasks.

15-Meter Nationals will be here in 2016. Should be fun. Put on some 15 meter tips and give it a shot.

Task sheet pic - couldn't resist a good troll. ;-)

Andy

Sean,

Sorry you are way off base on today's call. I'm not on the task committee but I thought it was a good call. I like AST's but we have been on the edge of storms for three days. Hard to predict where it will OD right now.

We had a forty mile long cell of rain down the middle of the task area today. It gave pilots the option of how to fly around it today.

Also the first turn area was over very intimidating terrain. The more advance pilots could fly over the high plateau but allowed the newer pilots with less mountain experience to fly where they were more comfortable. I ran a ledge next to a thunderstorm for fifty miles over a high plateau, I don't expect a newer pilot to do the same.

Today's task was really a triangle that all the pilots followed similar paths so much less variation than you would think for three turns with big rings.

As you remember from your last contest at Parowan this can be intimidating weather and country for new pilots. If I remember correctly you did not fly a few days because it was too advanced for your skill level at the time.

The task committee has done a nice job for the last three days with very dynamic weather. We have thunderstorms rolling through right now that could have easily been right through the course area today.

TT

Tim,

"A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations that would require the use of his superior skills." -unknown. :-)

Interesting that you bring up my decision not to fly that day at Parawon during 2011(?) sports class nationals. I did not fly because the CD decided to launch on a day which was windier (gusts to 40 mph) than the day before (35 mph, which was cancelled due to the "extremely strong winds"). Sorta makes your brain hurt when you think about it. I decided not to fly on a day where the Porta Potties on the North end of the Parowan runway actually blew over while we were out on the grid "considering" things. Crews had to sit on the wings without pause as they would bang around violently. The intense winds made emergency landing options on tow extremely dangerous (IMO) off the south end of the runway. The tow planes made a right turn directly over the town of Parowan at about 100 ft.

I made a "judgement" decision that the strong wind conditions were just too unsafe (based on the previous days decision and common sense) and talked to the CD about it and informed him that I was going to pull off the grid for that day. I felt the CD was under tremendous pressure from certain pilots to launch as the previous day one pilot was able to get up and fly. My argument, other than the simple wind strength, was that if 40 gliders launched and were stuck at or near tow release altitude and then needed to return it would be crowded and dangerous, and that towing itself was dangerous as well. The sniffers were struggling to get up and drifting downwind rapidly. The turbulence along the mountain at tow release hight was another concern. The way to get up at parawon was to work up over that high terrain and often that meant being less than 1000 AGL. Etc, etc.

Yes, I was dissapionted with the decision to hold a contest day in such strong winds when two fatalities had just occurred that summer in strong winds (20-25 mph) at contests.

Francois Pin also pulled off the runway that day and did not fly. I guess the conditions were to advanced for him too? I'm not sure that your assessment of our decision not to fly that day is entirely accurate. I also believe the Air Force Acadamy grounded all of its gliders as well.

After that, with only one or two days left in the contest and no real competitive concerns, I decided to tour the local parks with my wife who had just flown in. I had already had a great time and was not worried about the results anymore. I had no problem with the terrain itself (on days with surface winds less that 40 mph), it was just a matter of maximizing a fun vacation when the competitive chances were no longer important.

Zion is amazing by the way!!!

I just see it a little differently then you describe Tim. I hope that helps you understand. I do have all sort of pictures and video from on the grid and of the conditions that were launched in that day. I'm sure historical weather records are available. Perhaps I should post them for you?

Sean

Tim,

If the call was justified I am fine with it. I am happy to be corrected. From the weather report on the SSA page however it looked good and high (16k) and strong (5-6 knots) with no mention of thunderstorms. That weather report / the call for a TAT with 3 60 mile turns = why I brought it up. 3 60 milers is a pretty extreme TAT to say the least.

But that goes both ways. If you do have a good Nephi weather day I hope assigned tasks are called for at least some of the classes. That is actually far less extreme of a call than the 3 60 mile turn TAT.

I would like to be the first to introduce a new nickname for this type of "TAT" task...the TAOLC! A TAOLC task is any task with more than one 30/60 mile turn area.

Seriously, If we are going to be calling tasks like this becuase of difficult weather, why have any limitations at all? Why force pilots to edge near storms if the area is in the wrong place or perhaps "too small?" Why not allow 100 mile turn areas or entire quadrants to be scoreable? Why not come up with a time limited (or no time limit) task simply called TAOLC? No computers needed, just a watch.

Back to ATs, remember that only 3% of US tasks in 2013 were AT. Does that mean that only 3% of the tasks had weather that could support an AT? Do our guidelines need updating? Are we happy with 3%. Do TATs alone provide a fair contest?

I'm trying to get people to think broadly here, not specifically. Remember, 3%....

Sean

On Thursday, August 7, 2014 6:14:39 AM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:

I made a "judgement" decision that the strong wind conditions were just too unsafe (based on the previous days decision and common sense) and talked to the CD about it and informed him that I was going to pull off the grid for that day. I felt the CD was under tremendous pressure from certain pilots to launch as the previous day one pilot was able to get up and fly.

All sorts of decisions about whether to fly, the type of task to fly, the direction of tasking, etc. require judgments about evolving conditions and potential scenarios for things to go bad. CDs and Task Committees, in my experience try hard to ignore the shouts of the mob and apply their judgment as to to what would make a safe and competitive task. You don't want sailplane racing to be about who has the highest personal risk tolerance.

It goes for takeoff and climb out in strong winds as much as judgements about how to task so that the competitors aren't sent into harm's way (in this case extensive OD and driving rain) out on course with tasks that are too constrained for the conditions.

New "cropped" photo of task sheet: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx...Tzg&authuser=0

On Monday, July 28, 2014 3:17:12 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Here is a crude but accurate Google spreadsheet summarizing the 2013 "Task Mix" in the US (SSA sanctioned).



https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing



OVERALL 2013 US Tasks

Total # of Tasks 209

Turn Area Tasks 142 68%

Modified Assigned Tasks 60 29.00%

PURE Assigned Tasks 7 3% (YES, that says 3 PERCENT! 7 total AT's in the US in 2013.)

* Many of the MAT's were the infamous 1 turn MAT!



2013 US Nationals Tasks

(includes 15/18/Open/Standard/Sports/Club)

Total # of Tasks 48

Turn Area Tasks 28 58.33%

Modified Assigned Tasks 15 31.25%

PURE Assigned Tasks 5 10.42%

* All 3 of the 15/Open MATs were ONE TURN MATs

* 2 of the Sports/Club Nationals MAT's were NO TURN MATs.



Is 3% Assigned Tasks OVERALL and 10% Assigned Tasks in US Nationals the right tasking mix?



I for one would like to see FAR more pure Assigned Tasks in 2015 and beyond. What is everybody afraid of again?



Sincerely,



Sean



PS - 3% total assigned tasks in the USA in 2013? Really???????

New cropped photo of the task: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bx...Tzg&authuser=0

PS...if anyone was going to call the numbers at the bottom of the original page, I feel for you! ;-) ROTFL!

On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 3:47:40 PM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Task call today from USA Region 9 (Nephi, UT)...



Wait for it.....................



3, 30 mile radius turn cylinders (THATS RIGHT, 3 THIRTY MILE RADIUS).



Photo of task sheet (sent by my spy) he https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bx7K...p=docslist_api



The AM report for the day actually say's the words "LETS RACE!" ROTFL. --http://www.ssa.org/Contests?cid=2268... gion+9+North



Ready, set, go............fly anywhere you want like OLC and have fun! But it's no race folks. Not even remotely close to a race. That's for sure.



Weather considerations for the task selection you may ask? Read it for yourself...



"Just finished the pilot meeting, spirits are high and optimism is high for a great day of racing.

One task for all classes; 02 Start, 78 Wayne Wonder, 43 Milford and 22 Delta Muni all turnpoints have 30 mile radi.

Nominal 280, maximum 402.6 and minium 182.

Duration 3:30

Task B is same as A but 3:00 duration.

Weather is forecated to be 4-6F warmer, trigger temperature passed by launch, TOL 14-15K+, lift 5 knots average+, cumulus clouds should be present and winds at TOL 15-18 MPH.

Tasks on SSA tracker site, happy viewing

Let's race" (--- yes they really said that!)



I rest my case.



:-)



Sean

Very surprised that there was no comment to this one...hmmm.

On Thursday, August 7, 2014 9:14:39 AM UTC-4, Sean Fidler wrote:
Tim,



"A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid situations that would require the use of his superior skills." -unknown. :-)



Interesting that you bring up my decision not to fly that day at Parawon during 2011(?) sports class nationals. I did not fly because the CD decided to launch on a day which was windier (gusts to 40 mph) than the day before (35 mph, which was cancelled due to the "extremely strong winds"). Sorta makes your brain hurt when you think about it. I decided not to fly on a day where the Porta Potties on the North end of the Parowan runway actually blew over while we were out on the grid "considering" things. Crews had to sit on the wings without pause as they would bang around violently. The intense winds made emergency landing options on tow extremely dangerous (IMO) off the south end of the runway. The tow planes made a right turn directly over the town of Parowan at about 100 ft.



I made a "judgement" decision that the strong wind conditions were just too unsafe (based on the previous days decision and common sense) and talked to the CD about it and informed him that I was going to pull off the grid for that day. I felt the CD was under tremendous pressure from certain pilots to launch as the previous day one pilot was able to get up and fly. My argument, other than the simple wind strength, was that if 40 gliders launched and were stuck at or near tow release altitude and then needed to return it would be crowded and dangerous, and that towing itself was dangerous as well. The sniffers were struggling to get up and drifting downwind rapidly. The turbulence along the mountain at tow release hight was another concern. The way to get up at parawon was to work up over that high terrain and often that meant being less than 1000 AGL. Etc, etc.



Yes, I was dissapionted with the decision to hold a contest day in such strong winds when two fatalities had just occurred that summer in strong winds (20-25 mph) at contests.



Francois Pin also pulled off the runway that day and did not fly. I guess the conditions were to advanced for him too? I'm not sure that your assessment of our decision not to fly that day is entirely accurate. I also believe the Air Force Acadamy grounded all of its gliders as well.



After that, with only one or two days left in the contest and no real competitive concerns, I decided to tour the local parks with my wife who had just flown in. I had already had a great time and was not worried about the results anymore. I had no problem with the terrain itself (on days with surface winds less that 40 mph), it was just a matter of maximizing a fun vacation when the competitive chances were no longer important.



Zion is amazing by the way!!!



I just see it a little differently then you describe Tim. I hope that helps you understand. I do have all sort of pictures and video from on the grid and of the conditions that were launched in that day. I'm sure historical weather records are available. Perhaps I should post them for you?



Sean