FAA

That cite works for a student pilot. A certificated airplane pilot getting
glider training is not a student pilot. See the FAQs for Part 61 on the FAA
website.

As another poster noted, a CFI gives authorizations and may limit them as he
or she sees fit. Operate outside that authorization and you violate Part 61
and possible Part 91.


"Michael" wrote in message
om...
Judy Ruprecht wrote
So I repeat my question - what makes you think the
transition pilot is required to comply with any
additional limitations, such as expiration date, crosswind
limitation, etc?

Yeah, so? What makes you think the holder of a student
pilot certificate is required to bide by any of the
CFI-imposed limitations outlined in and required by
61.195(d)(iii)?

14CFR61 Subpart C -- Student Pilots
61.89 General limitations.
(a) A student pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft:
(8) In a manner contrary to any limitations placed in the pilot's logbook
by an
authorized instructor.

Michael

This one is interesting. I'd require him to get it
because he is a licensed pilot, and I'm not soloing
him as a student. I believe this to be more like a
checkout, whereas a BFR is much broader in scope.



At 22:54 21 August 2003, Mark James Boyd wrote:

The last, and stickyest part about a transitioning
pilot
is the flight review requirement.

Does a pilot transitioning from gliders to power (or
vice versa) need a current flight review to fly solo
in
the new category?

Kind of awkward to require a customer to go get a
flight review in a different cat and class (which he's
rated)
before you can solo him. This doesn't make common
sense,
but if you don't believe he's a student pilot
then he needs a flight review to fly solo/PIC, since
61.56(g) does not exempt him from the requirement.

But hmmm...I don't see any requirement that a pilot
fly in an aircraft in which rated in the Wings program
rules...
http://www.dayafss.jccbi.gov/ac61-91.htm
So perhaps one can do a flight review this way...

The last, and stickyest part about a transitioning pilot
is the flight review requirement.

Does a pilot transitioning from gliders to power (or
vice versa) need a current flight review to fly solo in
the new category?

Kind of awkward to require a customer to go get a
flight review in a different cat and class (which he's rated)
before you can solo him. This doesn't make common sense,
but if you don't believe he's a student pilot
then he needs a flight review to fly solo/PIC, since
61.56(g) does not exempt him from the requirement.

But hmmm...I don't see any requirement that a pilot
fly in an aircraft in which rated in the Wings program
rules...
http://www.dayafss.jccbi.gov/ac61-91.htm
So perhaps one can do a flight review this way...

At 13:42 22 August 2003, Todd Pattist wrote in response
to
Mark James Boyd:

Does a pilot transitioning from gliders to power (or
vice versa) need a current flight review to fly solo
in
the new category?

I think he does. (Otherwise), he could always voluntarily
surrender his SEL under 61.27, obtain a student certificate
and be treated as a student.

This may be one way of dealing with 61.56(c), but here's
what FAA's Part 61 FAQ has to say on the topic:

QUESTION: The scenario is a rated pilot who is training
for a new rating and is flying as a solo “PIC” with
appropriate endorsements. In accordance with § 61.56(g),
would this rated pilot still be required a current
flight review, even to solo the glider while under
instruction?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.31(d)(3); No, the pilot would not
need to have a current Flight Review to solo as PIC
a glider while undergoing training for that rating
in a glider, provided that pilot has received the appropriate
training and has a current solo endorsement in a glider,
as per § 61.31(d)(3). § 61.31(d)(3) was specifically
written to address this situation.

The complete FAQ is available online at

http://www1.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/AFS800/DOCS/pt61FAQ.doc

Judy

"Paul Lynch" wrote
That cite works for a student pilot. A certificated airplane pilot getting
glider training is not a student pilot.

Correct, and precisely my point.

As another poster noted, a CFI gives authorizations and may limit them as he
or she sees fit. Operate outside that authorization and you violate Part 61
and possible Part 91.

Really? Exactly what part of Part 61 or 91 will you be violating if
you are not a student pilot? Chapter and verse please.

Michael

"Paul Lynch" wrote
You are correct in one sense that I cannot show the detail wording in a CFR,

Because it doesn't exist.

but then there are other sources. I encourage you to wade through the FAA's
FAQ on Part 61. See http://www1.faa.gov/AVR/AFS/AFS800/DOCS/pt61FAQ.doc
See page 28. The guys that wrote part 61

However, as has been stateed multiple times, their opinions are NOT
official in any way. The only official, binding opinions come from
the chief counsel's office.

Michael

ADP wrote:
Boy, despite Lynch's interpretation, I see no way around the requirements of
14 CFR 61.56(c).
Certainly, a reading of 14 CFR 61.31(d)(3) does not seem to negate 61.56(c).

The Flight Review can take place in any "aircraft" for which the pilot is
rated.

As an aside, it would certainly seem that by the time a pilot is signed off
for solo he or she would meet or surpass any requirements for a Flight
Review.


Allan

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...

Judy Ruprecht wrote:



here's
what FAA's Part 61 FAQ has to say on the topic:






The Flight review is only applicable to aircraft the pilot is rated for.
If the power pilot has been soloed but is not rated in glider then
they cannot get a flight review in a glider. In fact they are required
to get a 90 check, just like solo students, therefore a flight review is
not applicable. They carry a logbook solo endorsement in glider and are
limited to the gliders listed in the endorsement etc etc. Once the pilot
is glider rated however, they have taken and passed the practical and
the FAA has endorsed the back of their certificate for glider, they can
take the flight reviews in a glider and it carries over.

While the power pilot is "soloed" not rated in the glider they are
operating under the restrictions of a student while in the glider. If
they need a flight review they will have to obtain it in a power aircraft.

Been there done that .. when I was getting my power certificate I had
been glider rated for many years. The FSDO at the time, face to face
with the power instructor present, infomed me that I was not a student
pilot during the training and could log solo time as PIC. This was
before solo student could do that. I wasn't too sure but why would we
not beleive what the FSDO says. When it came time for my practical the
examiner had a fit .. no way was I supposed to be logging PIC.. so I had
to go back and redo the log entries while the examiner called into the
FSDO .. more of a hassle that anything else .. As was posted above ..
the FDSO does not interpret CFRs and if they do and you get snagged ..
you will still be found at fault ..

Whether the soloed pilot exceeds FR requirements may or may not be true
... many I have found would at least meet them. But it is not relavent
as the soloed non rated pilot is not elegible for a flight review in a
glider until rated.

R Schutte CFIG

When an instructor endorses a logbook with a limitation and the student
violates that limitation then the specific section of Part 61 that the
endorsement contained is reg broken.

As for Part 91, that depends on what the pilot (student or transition) did.
91.3 addresses the PIC responsibilities (which a solo pilot, student or
transition, is by definition). 91.13 is for careless or reckless operation.
Once again, it depends on the circumstances and how much the feds want to
write up.

"Michael" wrote in message
om...
"Paul Lynch" wrote
That cite works for a student pilot. A certificated airplane pilot
getting
glider training is not a student pilot.

Correct, and precisely my point.

As another poster noted, a CFI gives authorizations and may limit them
as he
or she sees fit. Operate outside that authorization and you violate
Part 61
and possible Part 91.

Really? Exactly what part of Part 61 or 91 will you be violating if
you are not a student pilot? Chapter and verse please.

Michael

Some interesting points. I do not agree with a transition pilot requiring a
90-day additional endorsement. The addtional 90-day endorsement is
specifically for student pilots (note the section of the CFR that must be
quoted). A transition pilot is not a student pilot. It doesn't matter if
they are transitioning from airplane to glider or single-engine to
multi-engine.

FSDOs have notoriously enforced the various CFRs in various, and even
bizarre ways. There are many inconsistencies from FSDO to FSDO. Our
particular FSDO (Richmond VA) concurs that any kind of transition pilot is
not a student pilot, as is pointed out in the FAQs (non-regulatory, but
generally good guidance). Our FSDO says a solo endorsement with
restrictions is a legally binding restriction on the student/transition
pilot.

So who won the fight of the PIC, the FSDO or the DPE? Since the DPE works
for the FSDO....

".." wrote in message
om...
ADP wrote:
Boy, despite Lynch's interpretation, I see no way around the
requirements of
14 CFR 61.56(c).
Certainly, a reading of 14 CFR 61.31(d)(3) does not seem to negate
61.56(c).

The Flight Review can take place in any "aircraft" for which the pilot
is
rated.

As an aside, it would certainly seem that by the time a pilot is signed
off
for solo he or she would meet or surpass any requirements for a Flight
Review.


Allan

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...

Judy Ruprecht wrote:



here's
what FAA's Part 61 FAQ has to say on the topic:






The Flight review is only applicable to aircraft the pilot is rated for.
If the power pilot has been soloed but is not rated in glider then
they cannot get a flight review in a glider. In fact they are required
to get a 90 check, just like solo students, therefore a flight review is
not applicable. They carry a logbook solo endorsement in glider and are
limited to the gliders listed in the endorsement etc etc. Once the pilot
is glider rated however, they have taken and passed the practical and
the FAA has endorsed the back of their certificate for glider, they can
take the flight reviews in a glider and it carries over.

While the power pilot is "soloed" not rated in the glider they are
operating under the restrictions of a student while in the glider. If
they need a flight review they will have to obtain it in a power aircraft.

Been there done that .. when I was getting my power certificate I had
been glider rated for many years. The FSDO at the time, face to face
with the power instructor present, infomed me that I was not a student
pilot during the training and could log solo time as PIC. This was
before solo student could do that. I wasn't too sure but why would we
not beleive what the FSDO says. When it came time for my practical the
examiner had a fit .. no way was I supposed to be logging PIC.. so I had
to go back and redo the log entries while the examiner called into the
FSDO .. more of a hassle that anything else .. As was posted above ..
the FDSO does not interpret CFRs and if they do and you get snagged ..
you will still be found at fault ..

Whether the soloed pilot exceeds FR requirements may or may not be true
.. many I have found would at least meet them. But it is not relavent
as the soloed non rated pilot is not elegible for a flight review in a
glider until rated.

R Schutte CFIG

It's a surprise to most US pilots too. While glider IFR flight in IMC is
possible under the FAR's, it does take a substantial skilset......

A fellow CFIG in my club used to fly a Schweizer 1-35 into thunderstorms
for meteorological research. The 1-35 is still on the field and is still
flying - currently being used for remote thermal detection research.

Tony V.