World Class: Recent Great News

Ben Flewett wrote:

Mark,

So am I! That's my whole point! I would like to see
the World Class concept take off but we need a better
glider as the PW5 is too many steps backwards (over
40 years) for most pilots to accept.

You talk about the Sparrowhawk or AC4 as candidates
for the next World class glider. I haven't flown either
of these (and never will). But why would you change
the PW5 for some other piece of rubbish when history
has shown that pilots will not accept such a regression
in performance? In fact, why bother making the change
at all - it's just a giant leap sideways.

The LS4 or Discus 1 would be ideal in my opinion.

A lot of the excitement over having the LS4 as the World Class glider
seems to revolve around the idea it would cost about as much as a PW5
and have the build quality of the LS4. I think that is a hopelessly
naive idea, based on these facts:

$35,000 PW5, IN THE USA, with standard instruments, radio, and trailer

$43,000 304C (standard class), IN EUROPE, no radio or trailer
$13,000 trailer, shipping, radio
-------
$56,000 in the USA

Basically, the 304C is an LS4. Now, maybe there are pilots that think
it's still the better value, even at $21,000 more, but it's not a cheap
glider. If a goal of the World Class is low cost gliders, pilots will
have to accept it must be a smaller, lighter glider that won't glisten
like a polished mirror. Size, weight, and finish do matter when you are
manufacturing something.

I hope someone with glider manufacturing experience will tell us why I
am right/wrong about this.

--
-----
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric Greenwell wrote in message ...
A lot of the excitement over having the LS4 as the World Class glider
seems to revolve around the idea it would cost about as much as a PW5
and have the build quality of the LS4. I think that is a hopelessly
naive idea, based on these facts:

$35,000 PW5, IN THE USA, with standard instruments, radio, and trailer

$43,000 304C (standard class), IN EUROPE, no radio or trailer
$13,000 trailer, shipping, radio
-------
$56,000 in the USA


Compared to, say $80K for a new D2 or ASW28 or LS8. It would probably
still attract significant participation were it a real competetive
racing class, as opposed to a circus sideshow.

Eric Greenwell wrote:

If a goal of the World Class is low cost gliders, pilots will
have to accept it must be a smaller, lighter glider that won't glisten
like a polished mirror.

You're right. But the problem is that most pilots are *not* willing to
accept that ! At least at world level. That's all the problem...

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Denis wrote:
Eric Greenwell wrote:

If a goal of the World Class is low cost gliders, pilots will have to
accept it must be a smaller, lighter glider that won't glisten like a
polished mirror.


You're right. But the problem is that most pilots are *not* willing to
accept that ! At least at world level. That's all the problem...

Do you think the people complaining about the PW5 have the talent and
drive to become world level pilots, and the only thing holding them back
is the lack of a cheap competitive glider? I have the feeling most of
these pilots are more interested in a cheap high performance glider, and
not high-level competition.

My experience with world level competion pilots makes me think they will
fly _anything_ that lets them compete, though most prefer to fly the
high performance gliders.

--
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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Eric Greenwell wrote:

Do you think the people complaining about the PW5 have the talent and
drive to become world level pilots, and the only thing holding them back
is the lack of a cheap competitive glider? I have the feeling most of
these pilots are more interested in a cheap high performance glider, and
not high-level competition.

My experience with world level competion pilots makes me think they will
fly _anything_ that lets them compete, though most prefer to fly the
high performance gliders.

In many countries (including France) you just cannot win a place for
world class worlds flying a PW5, because there is no national
championships (I think there are only 3 PW5 in France)!

In french team the 2 pilots who went to world class WGC had to select in
standard class or 15m nationals, they were happy to go there rather than
having no place in any WGC but surely were somewhat frustrated not to go
to a "true" WGC...

I don't say that the WC concept is not good, but perhaps the PW5 was not
the better choice for that...

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Larry,

I am not 'hurling vitriol' at the PW5 design. If people
want to fly PW5s then good for them - it's none of
my business.

I am simply pointing out the the World Class concept
has failed because we have selected the PW5. It would
be nice if thousands of budding glider pilots stepped
forward and started flying PW5s but it has not happened.
Fact.

I believe the World Class concept could be great for
our sport but we need to select a better glider that
pilots will WANT to fly on mass.

Ben.



At 01:42 11 March 2004, Larry Pardue wrote:

'Ben Flewett' wrote in message
...
All valid points but....

You get what you pay for and nobody wants to buy a
PW5 because they are overpriced rubbish. That is
why
the World Class concept has failed in it's current
format.


I am biased as a PW-5 owner but am at a complete loss
to understand why so
much vitriol is hurled at the design. Everyone makes
their choices and pays
their money and that is fine. It would just never
occur to me to denigrate
all the designs I did not choose and believe me they
all have their
drawbacks.

I could say:

I would never buy a motorglider. You pay all that
money and get an
unreliable smoky engine where the new prop bearings
may seize and that
sounds like a lawnmower and that can't fly with any
kind of reasonably low
wingloading. Also you don't deserve any records you
set or contests you win
because of the motor advantage.

I wouldn't buy any of those modern, expensive German
gliders. They are
finished with junk that is easy to apply and smooth
but that disintegrates
in a few years requiring a refinishing that cost as
much as a used glider.
This is not to mention the spar shrinkage that may
happen in just a year or
so of southwest US heat. Then of course I will have
to replace it in 5
years to stay competitive.

I wouldn't buy any cheap Eastern European open class
glider. How would you
ever find the help to do that heavy rigging and it
is not competitive in any
class except maybe Sports.

I wouldn't buy any 2nd or 3rd generation back 15 meter
or standard class
ship. What classes are they competitive in now? Either
none or maybe
Sports Class if you are lucky. Yeh, I guess you can
fly with your buddies
if that interests you. Hard to get better if you are
trying to fly with,
instead of faster, than your buddies.

I could say all that and parts of it would be true.
Why would I want to?
I'm not offended when people make other choices, I
just enjoy the beauty and
technology of the gliders they purchase.

So there you have it. The 1-26 was and is a successful
one-design class, in
the US only. The low performance can be a disadvantage
in some areas and it
can not use a compact trailer. The PW-5 has the advantage
of more modern
materials and more performance and of being an international
class. The big
idea is it is a one-design class, not that it should
compete with the LS-4.
A side advantage is that it is inexpensive. What new
glider is cheaper?
Not fair to compare to used gliders. It is far from
being the prettiest
glider out there and I sure do appreciate the beauty
of an ASW-28, but I can
live with that for the advantages it does have. The
class hasn't grown as
fast as hoped, but it seems to be doing about as well
as Open Class (or
Standard last year) and I don't hear a lot of uproar
again that class.

My B1 model has a polyurethane finish that I expect
to last for a long long
time. It has automatic hookups. It seems as well
built as any recent
German glider I have seen. It does not have any indication
of spar
shrinkage, after some hot summers. It is extremely
easy to handle on the
ground and to rig and derig. It is and will remain,
as long as the class
endures, a cutting edge glider in the World Class and,
at least for now,
Sports Class, all without messing with the considerable
hassles of water
ballast. This means I don't have to replace it every
few years.

I am very happy with the glider and hope everyone else
is happy with their
choices.

Larry Pardue 2I

Shaking in my boots about competing against John Byrd
on an EQUAL BASIS this
summer.

Ben Flewett wrote:

Larry,

I am not 'hurling vitriol' at the PW5 design. If people
want to fly PW5s then good for them - it's none of
my business.

But, apparently, calling it "rubbish" is.

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Going futher with you logic - How about making ETA the new world
class? Your Discus is a piece of crap comparing to ETA and who would
want to fly Discus when you can compete in better glider?

And making LS3 - an used glider that is long out of producion a world
class?
Its like signing the idea of world class to die right from the
begining. Look nobody forces you to sell you glider and step down, you
can compete in your own class, why do you want make your glider apply
to two classes at once?

I think I've pointed it out before, look at last years world class
nationals, a guy showed up and after missing 2 full days of
competition and while flying a borrowed glider that wasnt really in
the shape for competeing, took second place missing the first place by
millimeters. What does it mean about the pilots? I suppose you cant
complain about the glider anymore, everyone had the same...

Where I live around Chicagoland area I've seen the idea of Pw-5
working - almost every club has one and there is lots of private ones.
Like someone pointed out earlier world class was not was not designed
to be a massive success, dont like it? Stay out! But stop spitting at
it all the time, because there are people that I respect that fly it
and they much better glider pilots than you are. And YES it pretty
lame that in todays economy this is all you can get for around
25K(new), but untill they gonna start making gliders in China we have
to live with what we've got.

Regards

Gregg Kurek

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 10:55:52 UTC, Ben Flewett
wrote:

: I am simply pointing out the the World Class concept
: has failed because we have selected the PW5.

I don't think has much to do with the PW5. I think the whole idea was
bound to fail because there are too many cheap, second hand gliders
with good performance out there. To succeed as a low-cost competition
glider, any design is going to have to undercut fifteen year old
Discii, ASW20's, Pegases, Libelles and even (shudder) Astirs. It's
just not going to happen.

Competition is no good as a driver, either. Only a tiby, tiny
proportion of glider pilots are interested in competing. Mind you,
running the world championships for a budget class glider in the
country which (although beautiful and full of friendly people)
probably represents the highest aggregate travel costs for
participants of anywhere in the world is an, um, intriguing idea.

Ian
--

Gregg,

I dont want to appear petty in the face of your posting
but Ben said:

1)LS4 not LS3, and until very recently the LS4 was
in production

2)Ben owns a Discus 2a. I believe he said a Discus
1.

I dont want to cast doubt on the ability of the pilots
in the competition you mentioned but I interpret your
story that the competition was of a low class. Any
competition where anyone who misses two days and only
just misses out on winning is hardly testing the pilots
talents.

Unless he/she likes being a big fish in a small pond
he/she will move out of the World Class pretty quickly.


Again, Ben said that he feels, as I do, that most World
Level pilots are very interested in the idea of a single-glider
compeition but they are not willing to buy somethng
(however 'cheap') just to potter around at 1960s performance.

Owain

I would suggest looking at the World ratings before
you cast doubts on peoples ability.


At 16:36 11 March 2004, G.Kurek wrote:
Going futher with you logic - How about making ETA
the new world
class? Your Discus is a piece of crap comparing to
ETA and who would
want to fly Discus when you can compete in better glider?

And making LS3 - an used glider that is long out of
producion a world
class?
Its like signing the idea of world class to die right
from the
begining. Look nobody forces you to sell you glider
and step down, you
can compete in your own class, why do you want make
your glider apply
to two classes at once?

I think I've pointed it out before, look at last years
world class
nationals, a guy showed up and after missing 2 full
days of
competition and while flying a borrowed glider that
wasnt really in
the shape for competeing, took second place missing
the first place by
millimeters. What does it mean about the pilots? I
suppose you cant
complain about the glider anymore, everyone had the
same...

Where I live around Chicagoland area I've seen the
idea of Pw-5
working - almost every club has one and there is lots
of private ones.
Like someone pointed out earlier world class was not
was not designed
to be a massive success, dont like it? Stay out! But
stop spitting at
it all the time, because there are people that I respect
that fly it
and they much better glider pilots than you are. And
YES it pretty
lame that in todays economy this is all you can get
for around
25K(new), but untill they gonna start making gliders
in China we have
to live with what we've got.

Regards

Gregg Kurek