Experience Question

My question to you folks is simply, how long did you
all wait before you decided it was safe to fly with your family?

I think I had my private all of two weeks before I took my parents on a
weekend trip, New Jersey to Pennsylvania. We had friends there, and
the round trip of just under 4 hours in the rental C-172 eliminated a
round trip drive of over 10 hours in the family car. Of course at that
point I had already flown that rental C-172 from Indiana to New Jersey,
but I was still well under 100 hours.

I felt very comfortable and very safe making that weekend trip. The
weather was good VFR, it was a pleasant day in late spring, I had it
all planned out and hit every checkpoint, and I felt proud of myself
for spotting the nondescript little strip in Pensylvania, and for the
way I handled the busy Sunday afternoon arrival into Caldwell. The
plane performed flawlessly, flying the entire trip without a hiccup.
Truly it could not have been any better.

In retrospect, while I think the trip from Indiana to New Jersey days
after getting the ticket was great, taking the family on that weekend
jaunt wasn't such a hot idea. That was over a decade and over 2000
hours ago, and my perspective on proficiency is a little different now
than it was then. In other words - I know how little I knew, how
poorly maintained the plane was, how much riskier that flight was
(compared to driving in the family car), and how poorly I communicated
this risk to my parents.

Was the risk acceptable? To me, certainly. To my mother? She avoids
driving at night or in bad weather as much as possible to reduce the
risk, which is small by aviation standards. Would she have gone had
she understood how bad the risk really was? I doubt it. Driving is
the most dangerous thing most people do, but it is much safer than
personal flying by any reasonable statistical measure, regardless of
how you may feel about it.

Some say the good lord protects fools and madmen, and thus he must
surely protect the newly minted private pilots, hours still in two
digits, who pile the family into the airplane and take off.

So if not right after getting the ticket, when? Well, here's how I
look at it. I don't much enjoy flying in the back seat of a GA
airplane, but I'll do it for transportation. In the back seat, my
experience and proficiency means little - I have no accees to the
controls, and so I am at the mercy of the pilot. I think nothing of
getting into the back seat of a car with a stranger, but I won't do the
same with an airplane - the risk is much greater. Every pilot is
different, but there are quite a few that I know that I would get into
the back seat. Only one has less than 300 hours (I'm not sure he even
has 100), and he had unusually high quality training (I believe the
average experience level of the instructors who taught him was 5000+
hours).

From what I've observed, most pilots will begin to understand their
limitations and the limitations of their aircraft (really understand
them, not just imagine them to be arbitrarily restrictive) somewhere
around the 300-600 hour mark, if ever. That's how long it takes for
them to scare themselves enough times. That's also about the point
where they gain a level of proficiency that makes it seem reasonable to
me to put my life in their hands, again if they're ever going to reach
it. My experience is also that a pilot who hasn't reached that point
in 600 hours isn't ever going to, unless he commits to long term,
intensive, high-quality training. This is highly uncommon in personal
aviation. I suspect it's because at that point the habit patterns are
set, and the pilot is either so conservative he has no idea where his
limits really are because he's never encountered them, or so reckless
that he sees every mistake he got away with as further proof that he is
the latest incarnation of Chuck Yeager. I won't fly with either kind -
the latter because I'm all too likely to be there when he says "Hey,
y'all, watch this" and the former because when the truly unexpected
happens to him (and it will), he will have no idea how to cope.

Having said all that - they're your kids. You make decisions about
what is and what is not safe enough for them all the time. Just
remember that when they get to be teenagers and want to drive (or ride
motorcycles), if you forbid it on the basis of safety you really
haven't a leg to stand on.

Michael

Gig 601XL Builder wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote:

Peter R., two different people thought you took thier two different comments
out of context.

Coincidence.

You certainly took mine out of context.

OK, please help me to understand something:

I love my son, I love my family and friends and I'm pretty damn fond of
myself. If I didn't think I would make it back safely to earth every time I
went up I wouldn't go up.

There is your original quote that started this particular ****ing contest.

Since we are both educated individuals rather than Usenet trolls, I ask you
for the courtesy of an explanation. Specifically, how does *thinking*
that you would make it back safely to earth directly relate to the OP's
question of experience?


--
Peter
























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"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Gig 601XL Builder wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote:

Peter R., two different people thought you took thier two different
comments
out of context.

Coincidence.

You certainly took mine out of context.

OK, please help me to understand something:

I love my son, I love my family and friends and I'm pretty damn fond of
myself. If I didn't think I would make it back safely to earth every time
I
went up I wouldn't go up.

There is your original quote that started this particular ****ing contest.

Since we are both educated individuals rather than Usenet trolls, I ask
you
for the courtesy of an explanation. Specifically, how does *thinking*
that you would make it back safely to earth directly relate to the OP's
question of experience?


It means that I (and he was asking for other pilot's opinions) wouldn't fly
unless I thought I was going to return to earth safely.

Gig 601XL Builder wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote:

It means that I (and he was asking for other pilot's opinions) wouldn't fly
unless I thought I was going to return to earth safely.

You didn't answer my question, but never mind.

Methinks you took something I wrote personally, which was not my intention.


--
Peter
























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I took my son right after the checkride. But right now I haven't been in a
plane for a couple months due to work/weather/rental bird availability, so
wouldn't do it today if the plane was available. Would take a bit of time
with an instructor and some solo time first (even though I could *legally*
strap him in and go). Maybe that will change in a few hundred hours (100
now), but right now I still prefer the reality check with the instructor
(or at least some solo practice) if I haven't been in the plane for more
than a month or so.


Fred Choate wrote:

Hello All....

This may sound silly, but I would like to hear some opinions on a matter
presented to me this evening.

I recently got my ticket. I started 5 years ago, and due to certain
circumstances, I had to take 4 1/2 years off, then I picked up and did 10
more hours of training to prep for the checkride. My total hours to date
are 63.8 with 26.7 of those being solo time.

Okay, that being said, my In-Laws made a comment to me tonight about
flying
with my children. Actually, they put it in the context of "do you really
think it is a good idea to fly with your children until you get more
hours....." followed by "....Larry (one of the In-Laws) didn't fly with
family members until he had 300 hours....".

I didn't even respond. My question to you folks is simply, how long did
you all wait before you decided it was safe to fly with your family?
Myself.....my kids were the first passengers I took up, and I felt
completely safe, prepared, and at ease with them in the aircraft with me.

Comments?

Fred

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
Oh? When you typed "don't have enough confidence" you meant "needlessly
paranoid?" Ok, I'll take your word for it now that you explained it.

Yes, I consider not having enough confidence the exact same thing as being
needlessly paranoid. What is so difficult about that for you to agree with?

Furthermore, you forgot to quote the other part of that sentence: "in the
skills that they actually DO have". In other words, I'm simply talking
about an accurate evaluation of their ACTUAL abilities, not the
overconfidence you describe.

You have to admit that there was some wiggle room there.

I have to admit no such thing.

Pete

I got my ticket at 60 hours and my kids were the passengers on my first
flight as a PP/ASEL.

Al Gilson
N3082U
SFF

Fred Choate wrote:
Hello All....

This may sound silly, but I would like to hear some opinions on a matter
presented to me this evening.

I recently got my ticket. I started 5 years ago, and due to certain
circumstances, I had to take 4 1/2 years off, then I picked up and did 10
more hours of training to prep for the checkride. My total hours to date
are 63.8 with 26.7 of those being solo time.

Okay, that being said, my In-Laws made a comment to me tonight about flying
with my children. Actually, they put it in the context of "do you really
think it is a good idea to fly with your children until you get more
hours....." followed by "....Larry (one of the In-Laws) didn't fly with
family members until he had 300 hours....".

I didn't even respond. My question to you folks is simply, how long did you
all wait before you decided it was safe to fly with your family?
Myself.....my kids were the first passengers I took up, and I felt
completely safe, prepared, and at ease with them in the aircraft with me.

Comments?

Fred

It's not like you're taking them rock climbing, for crying out loud.

Oh, no, not a rock climbing dig!

Come on guys, after all the complaining about non-aviators being
ignorant about aviation matters (such as safety) you'd think people on
this groups would be a little more mindful of activities that they do
not know that much about.

I am an avid pilot and avid climber. In my mind they are *very* similar
activities. Both are inherently risky, but both can be very safe if you
know what you are doing. They also both offer an wide spectrum of
positions to take with respect to risk vs. action. For example, some
pilots do not fly IFR, or do not fly "hard" IFR, or fly own
twin-engine, or won't fly at night, etc.

Same is with climbers. Some will only climb at the gym, some will only
top-rope, some don't trust themselves to set anchors and will always
get a second opinion, some will climb only with partners they know very
well, some will only lead on sport routes, some will only attempt
"trad" climbing 3 levels below what they can do on top-rope, etc.

For example, if you are on a properly rigged "top-rope" climb (meaning
the rope is attached to a pully system anchored at the top of the
climb) and the anchor is triple redundant, and your belayer is
competent, there is *no way* you are going to fall more than a foot or
two. (that's not to say that can't lead to a bonked head or twisted
ankle) Oh, and the helmet protects against the bonked head.


All these adjustments weigh skill, intelligence, and knowledge against
"fun" and "adventure." You choose where you want to be.

Like flying safely, climbing safely is *all* about judgement.

-- dave j
-- PP-ASEL, Instr., working on commercial
-- climber, 5.10ish on top rope, leads 5.8 sport, 5.7 trad

Peter R. wrote:

Gig 601XL Builder wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote:


It means that I (and he was asking for other pilot's opinions) wouldn't fly
unless I thought I was going to return to earth safely.


You didn't answer my question, but never mind.

Methinks you took something I wrote personally, which was not my intention.



What is with all of the extra lines in your .sig? Or am I the only one
seeing that?

Matt

Peter Duniho wrote:

Yes, I consider not having enough confidence the exact same thing as being
needlessly paranoid. What is so difficult about that for you to agree with?

Your cantankerous persona in these aviation groups has become quite
tiresome.


--
Peter
























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