Landing with one spoiler

4. Anybody know anyone who has had to land with both
brakes shut - in
a glider with more performance than a tin brick? I'd
be interested to
hear their stories.

Ray

I don’t post messages on RAS normally but this is an
exception.
Yes, I have landed a Discus with no spoilers, and yes
it was my stupidity.
I taped the spoilers shut to keep the rain out and
didn’t do a proper ground
check the next day. The first clue was on down wind
at about 500 ft. The
part that requires the most practice is when to turn
base and just how low
you must be in order to put it on the ground and get
it stopped. If you have
never done it you should practice it. The alternative
is to never make a
mistake and make sure the glider is always going to
give you what you
want.
I fly at a glider field where the instructors insist
that you not only know
how but also practice “no spoiler landings” to a full
stop, and they can spot
land with no spoilers. In fact we did one yesterday
in a Grob 103.
Caracole has done an excellent job of teaching me soaring.
It’s hard to
teach an old dog new tricks but I learn something new
every time I go out
to fly.
Chuck

Chuck Griswold wrote:
4. Anybody know anyone who has had to land with both
brakes shut - in
a glider with more performance than a tin brick? I'd
be interested to
hear their stories.

Ray


I don’t post messages on RAS normally but this is an
exception.
Yes, I have landed a Discus with no spoilers, and yes
it was my stupidity.
I taped the spoilers shut to keep the rain out and
didn’t do a proper ground
check the next day. The first clue was on down wind
at about 500 ft. The
part that requires the most practice is when to turn
base and just how low
you must be in order to put it on the ground and get
it stopped. If you have
never done it you should practice it. The alternative
is to never make a
mistake and make sure the glider is always going to
give you what you
want.
I fly at a glider field where the instructors insist
that you not only know
how but also practice “no spoiler landings” to a full
stop, and they can spot
land with no spoilers. In fact we did one yesterday
in a Grob 103.
Caracole has done an excellent job of teaching me soaring.
It’s hard to
teach an old dog new tricks but I learn something new
every time I go out
to fly.
Chuck

Put some tape on your stick the next time.
"What's this? Oh yeah."
Just a thought.

Shawn

Shawn wrote:



I don’t post messages on RAS normally but this is an
exception. Yes, I have landed a Discus with no spoilers, and yes
it was my stupidity. I taped the spoilers shut to keep the rain out and
didn’t do a proper ground check the next day.
Put some tape on your stick the next time.
"What's this? Oh yeah."
Just a thought.

And the tape should have written on it "DO A DI".

A normal DI would discover the spoilers won't open, so obviously a
control check was never done at any time. Removing the tape on the
spoilers is a good idea, but doing a DI is even better (the tape might
not be the only problem).


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Easy to throw stones, I know. But Chuck, this is the
most ridiculous thing I've heard. No Daily Inspection
and then no pre-flight checks? We don't need lessons
in airbrakeless landings, just a good grounding in
the basics. Caracole may have taught good soaring
but it looks like they skimped on the most basic points
of airmanship.

Mark

At 18:42 26 September 2005, Chuck Griswold wrote:

I don’t post messages on RAS normally but this is an
exception.
Yes, I have landed a Discus with no spoilers, and yes
it was my stupidity.
I taped the spoilers shut to keep the rain out and
didn’t do a proper ground
check the next day. The first clue was on down wind
at about 500 ft. The
part that requires the most practice is when to turn
base and just how low
you must be in order to put it on the ground and get
it stopped. If you have
never done it you should practice it. The alternative
is to never make a
mistake and make sure the glider is always going to
give you what you
want.
I fly at a glider field where the instructors insist
that you not only know
how but also practice “no spoiler landings” to a full
stop, and they can spot
land with no spoilers. In fact we did one yesterday
in a Grob 103.
Caracole has done an excellent job of teaching me soaring.
It’s hard to
teach an old dog new tricks but I learn something new
every time I go out
to fly.
Chuck

Mark Dickson wrote:
Easy to throw stones, I know. But Chuck, this is the
most ridiculous thing I've heard. No Daily Inspection
and then no pre-flight checks? We don't need lessons
in airbrakeless landings, just a good grounding in
the basics. Caracole may have taught good soaring
but it looks like they skimped on the most basic points
of airmanship.

So, I guess we can assume that you have never, ever, missed a checklist
item, and have never made any other mistakes while engaged in aviation.
My hat is off to you! For the rest of us, should we train on the
assumption that we always follow procedures perfectly and needn't
consider what to do if we don't, or assume we are human, screw up every
once in a while, and may therefore need to resort to a backup procedure?

Marc

At 22:42 26 September 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Mark Dickson wrote:
Easy to throw stones, I know. But Chuck, this is
the
most ridiculous thing I've heard. No Daily Inspection
and then no pre-flight checks? We don't need lessons
in airbrakeless landings, just a good grounding in
the basics. Caracole may have taught good soaring
but it looks like they skimped on the most basic points
of airmanship.

So, I guess we can assume that you have never, ever,
missed a checklist
item, and have never made any other mistakes while
engaged in aviation.
My hat is off to you! For the rest of us, should
we train on the
assumption that we always follow procedures perfectly
and needn't
consider what to do if we don't, or assume we are human,
screw up every
once in a while, and may therefore need to resort to
a backup procedure?

Marc


This isn't missing an item, this is not doing any checks.
Hopefully no-one takes off without doing any checks
(obviously they do). There is no need to practice
landing without airbrakes, although being proficient
at side-slipping is useful.

Just as there is no need to practice car skids on an icy parking lot.
But I'd rather practice, so that if I hit the icy spot, I can say
"wheeee", and make the correct control inputs, instead of "oh SH***"
and possibly rolling the car into a ditch.

When I give flight review, asking the applicant to do something like a
no spoiler landing tells me an awful lot more about their flying
ability than seeing an adequate normal landing.

If the applicant says, "hmm never done that, but let's give it a shot"
then proceeds to make a decent plan and not fly too fast/slow, and
keeps the altitude reasonable, then lands anywhere on the airport, I'm
happy.

Unfortunately, there are many pilots out there who will "panic" and do
some really stupid things. That is the time to have an instructor
aboard to set them straight and show that one can take what might
appear to be a mess and still land safely.

I suspect that many accidents where some inflight control failure
occured, were caused not by the failure of the control but a failure of
the pilot to control the aircraft.

Some other interesting exercises to try with an experienced
copilot/instructor a

Pess full rudder one direction before pattern entry to simulate a
rudder cable failure. I suggest releasing the rudder once the
applicant is lined up with the runway as a landing with full rudder is
not good for the glider.

Another is to not allow the applicant to use ailerons. The whole
landing pattern is to be flown with rudder and elevator (and spoiler)
only. Again, once on short final, use the ailerons to prevent a ground
loop, etc...

-Tom

5Z wrote:


Some other interesting exercises to try with an experienced
copilot/instructor a

Pess full rudder one direction before pattern entry to simulate a
rudder cable failure.

I know this is intended as an exercise, but I'm curious: does losing a
rudder cable really cause the rudder to go fully to one side? I'd guess
it would tend to stay centered, unless the pilot used the working pedal
to move it. This seems to be what happens when I fly with my feet off
the pedals, but that's not quite the same situation.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

As long as the pedals are spring-loaded (which has been the case in any
glider I've flown so far), there is no reason that the rudder should stay
centered after the failure of one cable.

However, I doubt this to be a scenario which should be trained...

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Eric Greenwell" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
5Z wrote:


Some other interesting exercises to try with an experienced
copilot/instructor a

Pess full rudder one direction before pattern entry to simulate a
rudder cable failure.

I know this is intended as an exercise, but I'm curious: does losing a
rudder cable really cause the rudder to go fully to one side? I'd guess it
would tend to stay centered, unless the pilot used the working pedal to
move it. This seems to be what happens when I fly with my feet off the
pedals, but that's not quite the same situation.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Bert Willing" wrote in
message ...
As long as the pedals are spring-loaded (which has been the case in any
glider I've flown so far), there is no reason that the rudder should stay
centered after the failure of one cable.
--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


Even if there were no springs involved, if a rudder cable parted, and unless
the rudder or cable were somehow jammed (probably unlikely), then I think
aerodynamic pressure would tend to return the rudder to near neutral - -
assuming the pilot removed pressure from the opposite pedal.

bumper