Engine failure

"The Visitor" wrote in message
...


RST Engineering wrote:

The OP said this was a 172.

Some are. So I have to ask.


Without me having to go to the TCs and do a search, can somebody please tell
me what series of 172s were injected?



Anyhow, if so it may be linked to a problem in the fuel pump.


And again the models of 172s that have fuel pumps?


Jim

All of the 172's at my FBO are FI, but they are all 1999 and newer.
Probably doesn't answer your question too well. Always gets me when I
go to pull on carb heat during a descent and it's not there.

John K.

On Tue, 25 Oct 2005 13:14:58 -0700, "RST Engineering"
wrote:


"The Visitor" wrote in message
...


RST Engineering wrote:

The OP said this was a 172.

Some are. So I have to ask.


Without me having to go to the TCs and do a search, can somebody please tell
me what series of 172s were injected?

I think it's any of the "new" ones - 1996 and newer R and S models.


Anyhow, if so it may be linked to a problem in the fuel pump.


And again the models of 172s that have fuel pumps?

1996 and newer - R and S models have electric fuel pumps, certain
serial numbers of which also have a SB out against it for something to
do with a diaphragm issue and inspection thereof if memory serves.

"RST Engineering" wrote in message
...

"The Visitor" wrote in message
...


RST Engineering wrote:

The OP said this was a 172.

Some are. So I have to ask.


Without me having to go to the TCs and do a search, can somebody please
tell me what series of 172s were injected?



Anyhow, if so it may be linked to a problem in the fuel pump.


And again the models of 172s that have fuel pumps?


Hawk XP is injected but it has a 195 hp Continental 10-360-K in it.

Allen

The newer 172's are fuel injected. They will have an engine driven fuel
pump and and electric one.

John








RST Engineering wrote:

"The Visitor" wrote in message
...


RST Engineering wrote:


The OP said this was a 172.


Some are. So I have to ask.



Without me having to go to the TCs and do a search, can somebody please tell
me what series of 172s were injected?



Anyhow, if so it may be linked to a problem in the fuel pump.



And again the models of 172s that have fuel pumps?


Jim

Sorry so late getting back to the group... away travelling on business.

Carb heat had been on since downwind. I was taught to put carb heat on as
part of my downwind checks every time, when doing manouvers at lower
throttle settings, and approximately every 15 minutes during cruise... which
I'm pretty faithful to. It is also standard part of my runup (both at 1700
RPM and at idle).

This was my third circuit. Carb heat was applied during downwind for all
three of them.

You make a good point that when I did my shutdown after restarting, I didn't
have carb heat on, so the engine not quiting and showing 800-900 could be
because carb heat wasn't on... though it didn't quit on my first two
landings either.


"Rob" wrote in message
oups.com...

Jase Vanover wrote:
I taxied to the maintenance hanger (after being directed there by the FBO
via radio notification of the situation), and explained what happened to
the
maintenance guy. He said that there is a stop on the throttle to keep
the
idle setting from being too low that probably needed adjustment. Even
so,
during shutdown (after restarting), idle setting on the throttle was
still
800 - 900 RPM, which should be enough to keep the engine running I would
think.

Did you have the carb heat on when the engine died in the air and off
when you couldn't make the engine fail on the ground? Maybe the idle
setting was low enough that the additional RPM loss due to the carb
heat made a difference.

-R

Happy Dog wrote:

Power changes are taught as SOP for climbs and descents. If what you say is
true (and I don't know it isn't, but I doubt it) engine outs could be
reduced by climbing or descending without power changes. Or at least
deferred until landing.

That would be a neat trick. :-P

Carb ice ...


"Jase Vanover" wrote in message
...
I had a situation yesterday at the end of my local "just because" flight
(you know, one of those where you really have no place to go but the
weather is favourable and you just want to go flying).

Was flying a rental 172. Took off like a rocket (lightly loaded solo...
cold air about freezing), tooled around practicing stalls, steep turns,
etc. Headed back to the pattern and did a couple of touch and goes. On my
final landing, I declared a full stop, and decided I would practice a
short field landing. I cleared the "imaginary" 50 ft. obstacle, dropped
the last notch of flaps and cut power... and the engine quit. No issues,
because I had the runway made (I didn't even realize that the engine had
quit until rolling on the runway... I knew something sounded different,
but the prop was still windmilling and I was concentrating on the flare).

I rolled out and the prop stopped, and I called traffic (uncontrolled
airport) to let them know I was a sitting duck. Checked the primer
(locked), mixture (full rich), fuel selector (both... and lots of fuel...
I filled up with only just over an hour of flight since), and restarted
with no problems and taxied off the runway.

Though it turned out to be no danger, I couldn't help but feel a little
disconcerted. A low level power off descent away from the airport could
have had a more serious outcome, or what if I misjudged and didn't have
the runway made when I cut power?

I taxied to the maintenance hanger (after being directed there by the FBO
via radio notification of the situation), and explained what happened to
the maintenance guy. He said that there is a stop on the throttle to keep
the idle setting from being too low that probably needed adjustment. Even
so, during shutdown (after restarting), idle setting on the throttle was
still 800 - 900 RPM, which should be enough to keep the engine running I
would think.

Anyone else experienced this and can share their thoughts? I'm about a 60
hour pilot, so not much experience.

An A&P and/or IA made a mistake working on a engine? To hear them tell, they
are the "experts" and you should never work on your own plane nor should you
be anywhere within 100 miles of the shop when they work on them.

Tom

"Mark T. Dame" wrote in message
...
Peter R. wrote:

My fuel-injected, turbo-normalized Bonanza had a newly rebuilt engine
installed last February. Upon completion of the work, I took the
aircraft
up for the proper first flight break-in. When I landed, the engine quit
just as I touched down (low idle) on the runway. I was able to restart
and taxied back to talk to the mechanic. He adjusted
the low-idle mixture so I took the aircraft up for the second flight
break-in. Again, upon landing the engine quit.

Suspecting something else now, the mechanic ran the aircraft on the
ground
and was able to duplicate the problem. He then suspected the fuel pump
so
he took it off and sent it back to the company who supplied it to the
engine rebuilder for inspection. The fuel pump inspectors discovered
metal
shavings inside the fuel pump that were cutting off fuel flow at low
idle.
That opened up an entire finger pointing session. Nice...

The source of the shavings was never identified but it was concluded that
somehow they were introduced when the engine was on the test cell.

I had a similar situation with a carburetor on the club's Archer. It had
been at the maintenance shop for some carb work. After ground testing and
a short flight around the patch, everything seemed be working fine. So I
took off and flew home. On final my descent rate was a little fast, so I
went to tweak the throttle and nothing happened. Since I was less than a
half a mile from the threshold with plenty of altitude, it was no big deal
to dead stick it in. I actually had enough speed left on landing that had
I been going the other way I probably could have made it off the runway.
(The runway at our airport has a slight grade and I was landing uphill.)
Instead I rolled to a stop almost exactly mid-way down the runway and had
to call for a tow because the engine wouldn't restart.

It was discovered afterward that the shop that had worked on the carb had
gotten a washer stuck between the top half and bottom half of the carb
that prevented the float from properly shutting off the fuel flow. The
result was a flooded engine on final.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"And so it was only with the advent of pocket computers that the
startling truth became finally apparent, and it was this:

Numbers written on restaurant checks within the confines of
restaurants do not follow the same mathematical laws as numbers
written on any other pieces of paper in any other parts of the
Universe."
-- Life, the Universe, and Everything, Douglas Adams

This is about as clear as it can be described.

Tom

"Denny" wrote in message
oups.com...
Carb ice, period!

If it was a fuel pump, mag, loose throttle stop, stuck lifters, etc.,
none of these things cure themselves after the engine stops. An iced
up air filter might melt off, but not in seconds... Carb ice is the one
thing that will clear within seconds inside of a warm engine once the
windmilling stops, which stops it pulling more cold air across the
venturi... . And a Lycoming will ice up... I had an engine on Fat
Albert go limp at 11,500 feet over top of the Detroit B on a winter
day, and it was 25 degrees at our altitude...
A few years back I lost an old high school classmate from Caro,
Michigan when he went for a student night flight in a Cherokee, iced up
and then stalled it before he got to the ground...

Claiming it couldn't be carb ice because it was too cold, dry, hot, up,
down, left, right, is wishful thinking.... In spring and fall get the
carb heat on early, lean it out aggressively before pulling the
throttle, and goose the engine every 20 seconds to keep it warm...

denny