FAA to be phasing out "position and hold" in the US

Steven P. McNicoll writes:
If you're uncomfortable using procedures commonly used at controlled fields
it would be best for everyone if you avoided controlled fields.

I'm very comfortable using procedures at controlled fields. In fact, I
did all of my primary instruction at Santa Monica. As pilot in
command, I made a decision to decline a position and hold because I
felt the landing traffic on final was too close.

You aren't suggesting that I defer my judgement as pilot to the
controller when I feel there's a safety issue, are you?

Ben Hallert
PP-ASEL

What about at uncontrolled fields?
At Watsonville (WVI) , on weekends, pilots taxi right out after someone
touches down
calling position-and-hold. Have to, because there can be 4 in the pattern
and more calling in their arrival.
Plus, there is a line of planes behind you wanting to take off.
As a new pilot, that field scares me a little. It takes some balls to get in
and out of there.

Dave

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

At my home base, which is a class C airport in Syracuse, NY, the
elimination of this instruction could occur as soon as March 20th.

From the wording of the email, apparently this has already happened at
Philadelphia International and will probably sweep the country this
spring.
The triple runway incursion at LAX last week seems to have hastened this
move.

While the traffic at our airport is light to moderate, I am curious how
this will impact airports like La Guardia or Boston Logan, two airports
where the P&H instruction definitely speeds up departures.

--
Peter

No such thing as P&H at an uncontrolled airport. The practical effect might
be the same, but the phraseology is wrong.

Bob Gardner

"Dave D" wrote in message
news
What about at uncontrolled fields?
At Watsonville (WVI) , on weekends, pilots taxi right out after someone
touches down
calling position-and-hold. Have to, because there can be 4 in the pattern
and more calling in their arrival.
Plus, there is a line of planes behind you wanting to take off.
As a new pilot, that field scares me a little. It takes some balls to get
in and out of there.

Dave

"Peter R." wrote in message
...
I just received an email from my FBO, who received word from ATC at our
class C airport, that the FAA is phasing out the "position and hold"
instruction "to try to curb the runway incursions and controller errors."

At my home base, which is a class C airport in Syracuse, NY, the
elimination of this instruction could occur as soon as March 20th.

From the wording of the email, apparently this has already happened at
Philadelphia International and will probably sweep the country this
spring.
The triple runway incursion at LAX last week seems to have hastened this
move.

While the traffic at our airport is light to moderate, I am curious how
this will impact airports like La Guardia or Boston Logan, two airports
where the P&H instruction definitely speeds up departures.

--
Peter

In article ,
"Bob Gardner" wrote:

No such thing as P&H at an uncontrolled airport. The practical effect might
be the same, but the phraseology is wrong.

Right. At an uncontrolled airport, it's called, "What's the idiot doing
dawdling on the runway?"

"Dave D" wrote:

What about at uncontrolled fields?
At Watsonville (WVI) , on weekends, pilots taxi right out after someone
touches down
calling position-and-hold. Have to, because there can be 4 in the pattern
and more calling in their arrival.
Plus, there is a line of planes behind you wanting to take off.
As a new pilot, that field scares me a little. It takes some balls to get in
and out of there.



P&H was never a wise thing to me. If you need that at an uncontrolled
field then ask someone on final to extend a few seconds. I have no
desire to P&H at an uncontrolled field and taking off from the hold
short area only adds a few seconds. Well worth it to ensure that I
can be aware of traffic on final or very close in base.

Ron Lee

"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...

P&H was never a wise thing to me. If you need that at an uncontrolled
field then ask someone on final to extend a few seconds. I have no
desire to P&H at an uncontrolled field and taking off from the hold
short area only adds a few seconds. Well worth it to ensure that I
can be aware of traffic on final or very close in base.


Extend on final? How do you do that? At times I've found myself in a
crowded pattern with aircraft lined up for departure I've announced I was
extending my downwind to allow for departures.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:


"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...

P&H was never a wise thing to me. If you need that at an uncontrolled
field then ask someone on final to extend a few seconds. I have no
desire to P&H at an uncontrolled field and taking off from the hold
short area only adds a few seconds. Well worth it to ensure that I
can be aware of traffic on final or very close in base.


Extend on final? How do you do that? At times I've found myself in a
crowded pattern with aircraft lined up for departure I've announced I was
extending my downwind to allow for departures.

Downwind is what I meant. Poor proofreading on that one.

Ron Lee

Why does it take time to phase out? I would imagine that the local tower is
able to decide on it's own and immediately stop offering P&H clearances.

Why would you want to do a P&H at an uncontrolled airport? I just sit at the
line and time my roll so that by the time I'm on the runway and lined up
(still rolling) the other plane is clear. Just continue with the takeoff.

How many actually run through a checklist after lining up on the runway? By
the time I'm on the active, I want to be ready to fly, eyes out the window.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
"Dave D" wrote:

What about at uncontrolled fields?
At Watsonville (WVI) , on weekends, pilots taxi right out after someone
touches down
calling position-and-hold. Have to, because there can be 4 in the pattern
and more calling in their arrival.
Plus, there is a line of planes behind you wanting to take off.
As a new pilot, that field scares me a little. It takes some balls to get
in
and out of there.



P&H was never a wise thing to me. If you need that at an uncontrolled
field then ask someone on final to extend a few seconds. I have no
desire to P&H at an uncontrolled field and taking off from the hold
short area only adds a few seconds. Well worth it to ensure that I
can be aware of traffic on final or very close in base.

Ron Lee

I've always had a problem with pilots at non-towered airports self
announcing "position and hold on runway so-and-so". Just as soon get
rid of that one too.NOt possible to see landing traffic once you are
"position and hold".

The one I hate at uncontrolled airport is "any traffic in the area please
advise".. now just were in the AIM is that?

So if the hap hazard pilot hears nothing? he assumes (there's that ugly word
again) that there is no one around but him? NOT !!!
BT

"Doug" wrote in message
ups.com...
I've always had a problem with pilots at non-towered airports self
announcing "position and hold on runway so-and-so". Just as soon get
rid of that one too.NOt possible to see landing traffic once you are
"position and hold".