Some bad controllers

Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought
it wasn't necessarily true.

Not i my experience. I have actually heard the controller's transmission stop
midway thru as he was talking to an airplane on another freq....switched to the
freq he was talking to the other airplane on and hear him finish his
transmission.
Most of the time they will broadcast on all the freqs they are working, but not
always.


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

ost (Ditch) wrote in message ...
Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought
it wasn't necessarily true.

Not i my experience. I have actually heard the controller's transmission stop
midway thru as he was talking to an airplane on another freq....switched to the
freq he was talking to the other airplane on and hear him finish his
transmission.

Yeah, seems like I've had a similar experience -- heard another
aircraft told "change to my frequency blah blah point blah", didn't
hear any other ATC transmissions to that plane, wanted to know 'cuz
I was heading for that airport, put that freq up on #2 comm and heard
'em.

Most of the time they will broadcast on all the freqs they are
working, but not always.

I wonder if it's some sort of hardware patch thing, where normally
they just route all the transmitters to one place and broadcast on
all the freqs they're working, but if there's a glitch of some kind
they wind up having to manually switch to work around it.

Not that any portion of our ATC system would ever experience any
kind of glitch that their tech. folks have to patch around or
anything like that....

Cheers,
Sydney

"Snowbird" wrote in message
om...

Is that always true? I know I hear this pattern sometimes, but I thought
it wasn't necessarily true.


Always true? I don't know, but if it's not it's certainly the norm. I try
to stay from absolutes because there are almost always exceptions. Note
that in another response I said "When controllers are working many
frequencies they typically broadcast on all of them simultaneously."

I recall working with a former Denver Center controller nearly twenty years
ago who described working a sector with multiple transceiver sites using the
same frequency. He had to select which site to use depending on the
location of the aircraft.



In any event, if he's spending time on the 'phone coordinating, we
won't hear that.


No, but if you don't hear him broadcasting to any aircraft he's probably got
nothing to coordinate.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message =
ink.net...
=20
=20
=20
I recall working with a former Denver Center controller nearly twenty =
years
ago who described working a sector with multiple transceiver sites =
using the
same frequency. He had to select which site to use depending on the
location of the aircraft.
=20
=20
I've run into that with Centers covering mountainous areas, too.
The first time, I thought I was losing coverage because I could barely
hear the controller talking to other aircraft on the frequency.
When I asked if he could copy me, he replied loud and clear to my area,
and explained what I'd just experienced was exactly as Steven described.

I wouldn't try to guess whether Phoenix Tracon might have a similar =
setup.
---JRC---

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

I recall working with a former Denver Center controller nearly twenty
years ago who described working a sector with multiple transceiver
sites using the same frequency. He had to select which site to use
depending on the location of the aircraft.


I've experienced that very situation also, in Denver and ABQ airspace. It
got so confusing one time, that the controller had to make a broadcast to
explain it to all us VFR flight following types, that he had multiple
transmitters on the same frequency, and not to worry if you don't hear
every transmission. What I've always wondered, is why do they bother? Are
they just trying to save a little electricity? It seems like this switching
of transmitters on and off is just extra workload for them with no
particular advantage. No one else is using the frequency in that area
except him. What am I missing?

Mike

he may have been working multiple freqs. Sounds like you are the one with
the problem, not him. Don't blame him for anything - next time file IFR the
whole trip.


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

dont blame him for anything?
who was controlling that other plane?
I sure was not.

there is no reason to have to file IFR the entire trip.

Richard Hertz wrote:

he may have been working multiple freqs. Sounds like you are the one with
the problem, not him. Don't blame him for anything - next time file IFR the
whole trip.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

Jeff,

A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
to hear, or he could have been busy coordinating your clearance, or
maybe even coordinating departures, so you would not create a problem
for them. You just never know without seeing the other side.

The thing to remember here is that you were VFR, and asked to pickup
your IFR clearance in the air. That by definition gives you less
priority in the system compared to other already IFR aircraft. Maybe
the lesson here is not to pickup your clearance in a terminal area,
but rather do it from the center prior to entering the TRACON's
airspace. I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
you.

Doug

Jeff wrote in message ...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

ya your right, thats why I received the traffic alert, the air was so saturated with traffic
that I was just in the way of that other plane.

Doug Rinks wrote:

Jeff,

I can assure you that the controller wasn't blaming the
delay on saturation for no reason.. there was obviously saturation
either in his sector, or in a sector which was ahead, and/or below
you.

Doug

Jeff wrote in message ...
Just a quick note to any of you guys flying IFR into the phoenix area.
I just got back from a trip to phoenix from vegas, I had filed a
composit flgiht plan, VFR untill I was by phoenix then I would request
my IFR if it was needed since FSS reported overcast at 2700 and few at
600.

freezing level was 7000-8000, MEA was 9000 in some parts and 10,000
during other parts of route. I chose VFR the first part of the flight so
I could have the latitude to dodge clouds to prevent icing.

all went fine, I got handed off to phoenix approach, I was at 12,000 ft
on top of the layer, no way into phoenix except through that mess
either. So I asked phoenix for my IFR and he said I was cleared into
class B and to decend to 7000 and he would look for my clearence. I
start my decent, between some clouds and he comes back and says to turn
toward carefree if I want to pick up my IFR because he was to busy. no
one was talking except me.
then he told me to stay clear of class B. so here I am now down from my
safe altitude above the clouds, a nitwit controller, I zig zag between
some clouds and call him again, he says he cant see me on radar and to
turn towards carefree, so I figured I would follow the valley under some
clouds, then my wife says dont turn that way, that mountain is covered
by clouds, so I get back on the radio and tell the controller he got me
down here, I amnow stuck and I needed my clearence or I would be in
trouble. He finally said, ok, and gave it to me. man that guy ****ed me
off. there was another guy trying to do the same thing as me in a
cessna, right after I got my clearence, and the controller told him to
stay at 2500 ft and turn towards carefree because he was "saturated"
with IFR departures. Yet no one else was talking. then here I am in
these nasty clouds, outside temp about -2, he gives me to decend to
6000, then right after that screams at me traffic alert decend to 5000
...so I am in total IMC diving down to 5000 ft.. then he does not want
me to do the ILS, he tells me to decend to 2700 ft and to be prepared
for the visual. man what a crappy flight - and I didnt even tell you
about the 1500 fpm downdraft or when my engine started losing power.

that controller still has me ****ed off and its 2 days later.

Doug Rinks wrote:
Jeff,

A couple things.. I think out of fairness to the controller the only
thing which you can say is that he was not busy on your freqency. It
is possible that he was busy on another freqency which you were unable
to hear,

No, it's not possible. If you cannot hear the controller then he is not
saying anything.