PSA: Don't be rude on the radio

wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 10, 1:46 pm, John Godwin wrote:
wrote
roups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

"FINAL APPROACH -- ICAO. That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such fix or point is not specified:
a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn or a racetrack procedure, if specified
b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:
1. A landing can be made; or
2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course. I'm sure you're aware that
traffic arriving IFR is often vectored onto 5-10 mile final, so that
"base leg" may have been flown, just 10 miles from where you're used
to turning base-final. Faster, high performance aircraft often take
time to slow down and transition from the terminal phase to approach
and landing.

So you are saying that 10 miles is where final approach begins? The AIM
says you should complete your turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the
runway; it does not specify a maximum distance. It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.

On May 10, 3:20 pm, "Allen" wrote:
wrote in message

oups.com...



On May 10, 1:46 pm, John Godwin wrote:
wrote
roups.com:

Landing. Aircraft while on final approach to land or while
landing, have the right-of-way over other aircraft in flight or
operating on the surface, except that they shall not take
advantage of this rule to force and aircraft off the runway
surface which has already landed...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.

--

"FINAL APPROACH -- ICAO. That part of an instrument approach
procedure which commences at the specified final approach fix or
point, or where such fix or point is not specified:
a. At the end of the last procedure turn, base turn or inbound
turn or a racetrack procedure, if specified
b. At the point of interception of the last track specified in the
approach procedure; and ends at a point in the vicinity of an
aerodrome from which:
1. A landing can be made; or
2. A missed approach procedure is initiated.

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course. I'm sure you're aware that
traffic arriving IFR is often vectored onto 5-10 mile final, so that
"base leg" may have been flown, just 10 miles from where you're used
to turning base-final. Faster, high performance aircraft often take
time to slow down and transition from the terminal phase to approach
and landing.

So you are saying that 10 miles is where final approach begins? The AIM
says you should complete your turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the
runway; it does not specify a maximum distance. It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.


I'm saying the official definition of "final approach" is vague with
regards to distance from the end of the runway. Realisticly, I would
argue that "final approach" would begin at the point you can see the
runway. Outside of that, I'd call distance and intention; ie- "Twin
Cessna 3AB, 15 to the west, straight in runway 9.... Twin Cessna 3AB,
10 mile final, runway 9" etc.

"Allen" wrote in message
...

FINAL APPROACH -- IFR. The flight path of an aircraft which is
inbound to an airport on a final instrument approach course, beginning
at the final approach fix or point and extending to the airport or the
point where a circle-to-land maneuver or missed approach is executed."

From that definition, "final approach" would be from the marker
inbound on an ILS, or wherever the arriving traffic happens to get
lined up with the final approach course...

So you are saying that 10 miles is where final approach begins? The AIM
says you should complete your turn to final at least 1/4 mile from the
runway; it does not specify a maximum distance.


The ILS approach at McMinnville, Oregon (KMMV) is pretty typical and the
FAF-to-MAP distance indicated on the approach plate is 5.1 miles.

(Couldn't resist; I've had the approach plate tacked the the wall next to my
monitor for weeks now for no reason I can remember.)
-c

On Thu, 10 May 2007 14:20:24 -0500, "Allen"
wrote in :

It also defines "final" as
the term commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.


Right. So VFR flights are on final approach at the time they turn
from the Base to Final leg of the landing pattern, and IFR flights at
the FAF. Easy.

"John Godwin" wrote in message
. 3.50...

... and I believe that the AIM defines "Final Approach" as:
A flight path in the direction of landing along the extended
runway centerline from the base leg to the runway.


P/CG:

FINAL- Commonly used to mean that an aircraft is on the final approach
course or is aligned with a landing area.

I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.

The first time was when I was at a local uncontrolled field with one
of my students to introduce solf-field takeoffs and landings. When we
were turning downwind, I heard a Cirrus call "On the ILS at the outer
marker". I haven't flown any approaches for months, so I had no idea
how exactly far out he was. There were at least two other people in
the pattern, so instead of asking him to give a more accurate position
report, I just went on. Just before I got abeam the numbers on
downwind, the Cirrus guy called 3 miles out, so I told my student to
just do a short approach instead of extending which would have screwed
everyone else up.

I'm looking out the window like crazy to find this Cirrus guy but I
don't see him anywhere. Then suddenly I hear him say in a snappy voice
"Cessna on base at *** do you plan on cutting me off?" Startled, I
looked around but couldn't for the life of me see him. I responded
"uuhh, Cirrus on ILS I don't see you", then he snaps back
sarcastically, "oh 45 seconds before impact..."

I look right in front of me and there he is zooming by. I didn't
realize Cirrus's were so fast. He had to have been going more than 150
knots. I've turned short approaches in front of Seminoles when they
were on 3 mile ILS finals and it has never been a problem...

Anyways, the guy didn't have to be such a huge asshole. A busy pattern
is stressful enough, the ones coming in straight in can at least be a
little helpful, or at the VERY LEAST not act like a little baby when
things don't go their way.

Lemme get this straight! You are in instructor, which means you are
instrument rated, which means that you should know that outer markers are
typically at least five miles from the landing zone--so, if you can not
recall for a specific airport, you can still guess five miles. In addition,
you did not bother to maintain familiarity with the procedures at an airport
where you typically instruct, you failed to understant that the Cirrus had
travelled a substantial (probably between a third and a half) of the
distance to the runway, and then you turned in front of known traffic which
you did not see.

IMHO, your usenet handle is well chosen. If you were my instructor; the
landing would be a full stop, followed by a very firm "You're fired!" (That
is, of course, presuming that I was stricken speechless back when I refused
to turn base.)

Peter

On May 10, 10:20 am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:
I had two recent situations where other pilots thought they'd be cool
by being condescending jackasses over the radio, which effected my
ability to teach my student.

The first time was when I was at a local uncontrolled field with one
of my students to introduce solf-field takeoffs and landings. When we
were turning downwind, I heard a Cirrus call "On the ILS at the outer
marker". I haven't flown any approaches for months, so I had no idea
how exactly far out he was. There were at least two other people in
the pattern, so instead of asking him to give a more accurate position
report, I just went on. Just before I got abeam the numbers on
downwind, the Cirrus guy called 3 miles out, so I told my student to
just do a short approach instead of extending which would have screwed
everyone else up.

I'm looking out the window like crazy to find this Cirrus guy but I
don't see him anywhere. Then suddenly I hear him say in a snappy voice
"Cessna on base at *** do you plan on cutting me off?" Startled, I
looked around but couldn't for the life of me see him. I responded
"uuhh, Cirrus on ILS I don't see you", then he snaps back
sarcastically, "oh 45 seconds before impact..."

I look right in front of me and there he is zooming by. I didn't
realize Cirrus's were so fast. He had to have been going more than 150
knots. I've turned short approaches in front of Seminoles when they
were on 3 mile ILS finals and it has never been a problem...

Anyways, the guy didn't have to be such a huge asshole. A busy pattern
is stressful enough, the ones coming in straight in can at least be a
little helpful, or at the VERY LEAST not act like a little baby when
things don't go their way.

Lemme get this straight! You are in instructor, which means you are
instrument rated, which means that you should know that outer markers are
typically at least five miles from the landing zone--so, if you can not
recall for a specific airport, you can still guess five miles. In addition,
you did not bother to maintain familiarity with the procedures at an airport
where you typically instruct, you failed to understant that the Cirrus had
travelled a substantial (probably between a third and a half) of the
distance to the runway, and then you turned in front of known traffic which
you did not see.



First off, I never said I did nothing wrong. I know I made a mistake
by turning in front of him. We all make mistakes, whether you're an
instructor or not. THE WHOLE POINT of the post was that the Cirrus guy
had to act like a pumpus ass. In my probably 2 years of instructing,
I've had maybe 3 run-ins similar to this, the other two were handled
professionally and were good learning experiences for me and my
students.

I knew the guy was 3 miles out, which is why I turned base early (I'm
pretty sure I mentioned this in my OP). I normally extend about one
mile, here I turned base about a half mile. Like I said before, I have
done short approaches with twins only 3 miles out and it has never
been a problem.


IMHO, your usenet handle is well chosen. If you were my instructor; the
landing would be a full stop, followed by a very firm "You're fired!" (That
is, of course, presuming that I was stricken speechless back when I refused
to turn base.)

Peter

ah, the ol' internet tough guy routine...

"buttman" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 10, 10:20 am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

Lemme get this straight! You are in instructor, which means you are
instrument rated, which means that you should know that outer markers are
typically at least five miles from the landing zone--so, if you can not
recall for a specific airport, you can still guess five miles. In
addition,
you did not bother to maintain familiarity with the procedures at an
airport
where you typically instruct, you failed to understant that the Cirrus
had
travelled a substantial (probably between a third and a half) of the
distance to the runway, and then you turned in front of known traffic
which
you did not see.



First off, I never said I did nothing wrong. I know I made a mistake
by turning in front of him. We all make mistakes, whether you're an
instructor or not. THE WHOLE POINT of the post was that the Cirrus guy
had to act like a pumpus ass.

Sounds like a typical childish response (ie, making excuses).

The only pompous ass here is yourself.
--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO

"Matt Barrow" wrote in message
...

"buttman" wrote in message
oups.com...
On May 10, 10:20 am, "Peter Dohm" wrote:

Lemme get this straight! You are in instructor, which means you are
instrument rated, which means that you should know that outer markers
are
typically at least five miles from the landing zone--so, if you can not
recall for a specific airport, you can still guess five miles. In
addition,
you did not bother to maintain familiarity with the procedures at an
airport
where you typically instruct, you failed to understant that the Cirrus
had
travelled a substantial (probably between a third and a half) of the
distance to the runway, and then you turned in front of known traffic
which
you did not see.



First off, I never said I did nothing wrong. I know I made a mistake
by turning in front of him. We all make mistakes, whether you're an
instructor or not. THE WHOLE POINT of the post was that the Cirrus guy
had to act like a pumpus ass.

Sounds like a typical childish response (ie, making excuses).

The only pompous ass here is yourself.
--
Matt Barrow
Performace Homes, LLC.
Colorado Springs, CO

I try and avoid this guy unless he posts on the student group where I have
an interest from an instructor's point of view. Over here it's every man for
himself and I try to avoid taking him on.
Last time we "got together", was fairly recently when he posted on the
student group about yanking the fuel to shutoff on takeoff with "his
student" and wanted to know if it was a good idea :-)
I believe after my answer to him on this "little issue" that he now refers
to me as a "Usenet bully".
I'd be very interested in actually seeing his CFI certificate number and
knowing his real name for checkup with the FAA. I find it extremely
difficult from his dialog and points of view to envision him as a CFI, but
stranger things have happened I guess :-))
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:

Last time we "got together", was fairly recently when he posted on the
student group about yanking the fuel to shutoff on takeoff with "his
student" and wanted to know if it was a good idea :-)

Now everything makes a little more sense.

Thanks for pointing out the history.