question about lightning

"Jim Carter" wrote

Trying to make the pursuit safer by eliminating training accidents by
removing certain skill tests from the practical flight test didn't do
anyone much good I suspect. It did however create commercial pilots who've
never been upside down or in a fully developed spin before. I don't see
that as an improvement, but maybe I'm overlooking something.

The only thing you are overlooking is the total death tally.

There once were more people killed in spin training than were killed in spin
accidents.

They stopped spin training, and there were still people killed in actual
spins, but not as many as the previous totals of training and real spin
accidents.

I think many older instructors still sneak in some "real" fully developed
spin training. There are also the "upset training" schools, that have well
trained instructors and equipment capable of handling the abuse. My
personal feeling is that they are probably a "good thing."

I wonder how many people trained since the elimination of spin skills on the
PP test, have actually done fully developed spins? Also, I wonder how many
have gone through one of the "unusual attitude" and "upset training"
schools?
--
Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote:
There once were more people killed in spin training than were killed
in spin accidents.

"The notion that mandatory spin training was rescinded in 1949 because "we
were killing more pilots during spin training than the training was
saving" is a myth. In the many research papers I’ve read on the subject
from every decade of powered flight, I have yet to come across evidence
substantiating this claim." Quoted from:

http://www.richstowell.com/aopa.htm

Worth a read.

"gatt" wrote in message
...

"Jim Logajan" wrote in message
.. .
"gatt" wrote:
Anybody know any aerobatic instructors in Oregon or southeast
Washington?

I've done spins and spin training, but nothing inverted.

Probably too far south for you I suspect, but there is this company based
out of Creswell Oregon (just south of Eugene/Springfield):

http://www.wingoveraerobatics.com/

Bookmarked it! $330/hr for Pitts (including instruction) seems like a
lot, but, coffins aren't cheap either and it's a short course. Thanks,
all.


I STRONGLY suggest you look for a Decathlon or a Citabria for intro work.
They have a slower roll rate and less power but that gives them flight
characteristics that are a lot easier for a beginner and IMHO are a lot more
elegant and what you learn will be easier to translate to your normal
flying. They are not as spectacular but IMHO are more fun and are certainly
easier on your stomach which means you can stay out for an hour instead of
20 min. The rolls will be slower and the loops will be bigger but since
they have higher drag will not accelerate as quickly in downlines. Save the
Pitts and Extra money for special occasions and after you have 10-15 hours
in the slower and much cheaper aircraft. I would expect you will find a
Citabria w/instructor for ~$150 and a Decathlon for not much more. The
Decathlon is a better & stronger bird but the Citabria is quite adequate for
low G stuff.

Good luck,

"gatt" wrote in message
...

"Jim Logajan" wrote in message
.. .
"gatt" wrote:
Anybody know any aerobatic instructors in Oregon or southeast
Washington?

I've done spins and spin training, but nothing inverted.

Probably too far south for you I suspect, but there is this company based
out of Creswell Oregon (just south of Eugene/Springfield):

http://www.wingoveraerobatics.com/

Bookmarked it! $330/hr for Pitts (including instruction) seems like a
lot, but, coffins aren't cheap either and it's a short course. Thanks,
all.

-c


That would be the famous Steve Wolf. http://www.wolfpitts.com/

He has been around for a while. He used to fly with a 4 ship aerobatic
team, maybe "Northern Nights", or something like that. (Help me out here
Dudley) I watched them fly at the Reno Air Races many moons ago. He builds 6
aileron Pitts in his shop at the Creswell airport. He visited our EAA
Christmas party this year, and there is no one I would feel more comfortable
with hanging upside down. Enjoy your flight!

Al G

Al G wrote:


He builds 6 aileron Pitts in his shop at the Creswell
airport. He visited our EAA Christmas party this year, and there is
no one I would feel more comfortable with hanging upside down. Enjoy
your flight!
Al G

Ok, I have to ask, where do they put the extra pair of ailerons?

"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in message
...
Al G wrote:


He builds 6 aileron Pitts in his shop at the Creswell
airport. He visited our EAA Christmas party this year, and there is
no one I would feel more comfortable with hanging upside down. Enjoy
your flight!
Al G

Ok, I have to ask, where do they put the extra pair of ailerons?


Inboard, lower set of wings. It apparently allows you to control the
roll while vertical at zero airspeed hanging on the prop. Not a condition I
run into a lot in the rental 172's.

Al G

Al G wrote:
Ok, I have to ask, where do they put the extra pair of ailerons?


Inboard, lower set of wings. It apparently allows you to control the
roll while vertical at zero airspeed hanging on the prop. Not a condition I
run into a lot in the rental 172's.



You obviously never rented from Carowings Flight Service.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

"Richard Riley" wrote in message
...

It was a hot, still day, and a heavy 767 landed before them. There
was plenty of separation and they were above and behind, so they
should have been fine for wake turbulence. But apparently the vortex
bounced off the ground and rose to meet them. On very short final -
about 200' altitude, it grabbed them and rolled them right.

I did spin training at 10.4 hours, before my first solo, in a C150 (N3278V)
with my first instructor--who was home from Embry Riddle for the summer--in
1989. He said "We don't have to do this" but I said "bring it on."

The reason he recommended is similar to what you described. A bunch of
Embry Riddle CFI students were riding in a twin with a senior-year student
who had been on the aerobatic team. On takeoff the same sort of thing you
described happened and he managed to flip the airplane back around, bring it
around the pattern and land. Dan, my instructor, described the scene when
they landed...the students all kneeling on the ground and throwing up or
walking around in a daze, and all the witnesses looking at the pilot in awe.
He said everybody who was in the airplane that didn't hang it up and quit
flying afterward signed up for aerobatic training.

Dan lost his summer CFI job for teaching spins, etc, but went on to fly with
ER in the national aerobatic championships.

-c

On Jun 7, 3:48 am, Richard Riley wrote:
On Tue, 5 Jun 2007 09:45:35 -0700, "gatt"

wrote:

"Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote in message
oups.com...

I deviated south slightly to pass
around the heavy rain when I was surrounded by what I can only
describe as a "spider web" of lighting and was violently rolled upside
down.

Curious.... what's the procedure for recovering a 150 from an upside down
attitude? (FTM, what's the procedure for an Arrow?)

Years ago my dad decided to get back into flying after a 40 year
lay-off. He went for a quick intro ride in a 172 at SNA, with a pilot
from Sunrise Aviation.

They did the normal intro stuff - level turns, turns around a point,
that kind of thing. They came back in after an hour.

It was a hot, still day, and a heavy 767 landed before them. There
was plenty of separation and they were above and behind, so they
should have been fine for wake turbulence. But apparently the vortex
bounced off the ground and rose to meet them. On very short final -
about 200' altitude, it grabbed them and rolled them right.

The instructor, by chance, was also an acro instructor at Sunrise.
They have a branch, LenAir Aerobatics, that does serious acro
training. Before they were 90 degrees he'd opened the throttle. He
fought the roll through about 160 degrees, then reversed ailerons,
added rudder and stuffed the nose up. They completed the roll and
started climbing. They'd lost about 100 feet.

The tower called them and said "cleared to land any runway, no need to
reply." They replied "going around, left closed pattern."

My dad didn't ever complete his license - he couldn't get a medical
and died a few years later. But he did another 50 hours of dual
after that.

Was that Mike Church by chance? I really enjoyed my time on the west
coast and meeting and flying with many who are established experts in
the aviation industry. Come to think of it, I've enjoyed the company
of many of the aviation greats in my 50 years in GenAv around the
world.
Ol S&B
Soaring Buzzard
Infamous Worldwide pilot/instructor