VOR approach SMO

-----Original Message-----
From: Roy Smith ]
Posted At: Monday, July 23, 2007 5:19 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: VOR approach SMO
Subject: VOR approach SMO

In article
,
Hamish Reid wrote:

The other point is that you're on an approach with a lot of faster
aircraft behind you, and I'm sure the temptation is to keep going
like a
bat out of hell right up until the MDA, at which point you don't
have a
lot of time and space to slow down. That hasn't happened to me, but
I
can understand why it might. I was asked for best forward speed all
the
way from somewhere out near OHIGH to CULVE.

You worry about flying the approach and let ATC worry about the
aircraft
behind you. If you're not comfortable flying it any faster than 90
kts,
when they ask you for best speed, just tell them 90 kts IS your best
speed.
They'll deal with it.

Of course the way they deal with it could easily have you practicing a
hold for quite a while.

When I was working out of Boeing Field, I intentionally took my advanced
instrument students down to Portland because it gave them an exposure to
pressure situations they couldn't get in Seattle. Portland required good
speed down final which often meant no gear or flaps until the middle
marker or minimums. Students taught to stabilize the approach at 90
knots without getting to experience an approach at 120 or 140 or more
are often very uncomfortable in high-traffic situations. I'd rather they
were uncomfortable when I was there to help them. Besides, it is best if
we all try to work together.

I still practice high-speed approaches occasionally just to keep myself
comfortable with the reactions and timing necessary and to stay
comfortable with the aircraft handling during the quick configuration
changes.


Kindest regards,
Jim Carter

Politicians fear most an armed, educated electorate.

OK, now I admit to being confused.

I read the chart as 'the MDA is 1120 unless equipped with dme or receiving
radar advisories so that CULVE can be indentified, in which case the MDA is
680.' The asterisk next to the 1120 is, I believe, indicating that the MDA
is 1120 unless (see the other half of the asterisk below) DME or Radar
equipped, inwhich case it is 680. With DME I do not see a requirement to
stay at 1120 to CULVE and THEN descend to 680. Rather, I believe it says I
can descend to 680 (with DME) once I pass BEVEY.

I also do not agree with the statement "You cannot descend below 1120 prior
to CULVE
even if you see the runway unless you either cancel, get a contact
approach, or a visual approach.". 91.175 clearly states that I can descend
below MDA when I have the runway environment (lightts, etc) in sight. No
restrictions on when I can begin a descent below MDA. Were there a VDP,
different situation, but no VDP on this approach.

So I stand by what I said earlier. I can be at 680 BEFORE CULVE, AND, if I
have the runway environment, I can be below 680 even earlier.

I also reserve the right to be wrong

"B" wrote in message ...
pgbnh wrote:

I think all but one of the posters have missed the fact that the MDA is
not 1120 but 680. If indeed the vis was 3 miles, then the runway should
have been in sight from the MDA of 680 feet about a mile OUTSIDE of
Culve. (Remember what you can do once you have the runway in sight????)
At which point it's not a particularly big deal to lose 500 feet to land
on the numbers. Maybe even crossing Culve at 3-400 feet agl.
"Hamish Reid" wrote in message
...

The MDA is 1120 unless you have DME. If you have DME then the MDA is 680
once you pass CULVE. You cannot descend below 1120 prior to CULVE even if
you see the runway unless you either cancel, get a contact approach, or a
visual approach.

Having said that, when the weather is good, folks who know the airport
descend out of 1120 on the 4 degree PAPI. But, sometimes it is 600 and 1
around there.

"
The MDA is 1120 unless you have DME. If you have DME then the MDA is 680
once you pass CULVE. You cannot descend below 1120 prior to CULVE even if
you see the runway unless you either cancel, get a contact approach, or a
visual approach.

If you have DME, IFRGPS, or ATC Radar, you can descend to 680 past
BEVEY............that is simply what that chart reads.

Karl

If there were, they be full of holes, just like your explanation.

Karl


"B" wrote in message ...
Man, you are an accident looking for a place to happen. There are
buildings over 800 feet high inside your minimums-busting 6.7 miles.

karl gruber wrote:

No, the VIS is 3. It doesn't matter where the VOR is. You can be at 680
6.7 miles out. When you are 3 miles from the AIRPORT, it will be in
sight.

Karl

On Jul 23, 5:43 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:
Correct. That's why there's a little * next to the 1120*.


Unless they changed the rules of footnoting on me, the only thing the
little * next to 1120 tells me is that DME is required when the tower
is closed. Presumably to identify CULVE.

I love that question!

No........I don't have an instrument rating. What does my having or not
having an instrument rating have to do with your confusion about this
approach?

Hell, MXmania could read this correctly.

Karl
"B" wrote in message ...
Do you have an instrument rating?

Help me understand how DME permits you to descent to 680 "far before
CULVE."

karl gruber wrote:

Not with DME, you'll be at 680 far before CULVE.

Karl
"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
ups.com...

On Jul 23, 1:18 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:

Where are you digging up such erroneous thoughts?

With 800/3 you'll be way outside CULVE when you see the runway.

No, with 800 foot ceiling you will be at 1120 when at CULVE, making it
hard to see the runway through the clouds.

-Robert

You may be "seeing" the plate.........but certainly not comprehending it.


Karl


"B" wrote in message ...
I am reading the plate. Apparently, you are not.

karl gruber wrote:

Not with DME, or do you think that a Gulfstream wouldn't have DME??

Read the plate!

Karl


"B" wrote in message
...

karl gruber wrote:


I see no problem with the weather 800/3 as you point out. Inside BEVEY
drive down to 680 outside CULVE, and have 3 miles to descend 505 feet.
Any jet will do that all day long.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG

1120 at CULVE. 175 feet airport elevation. Difference 945 feet.
Distance from CULVE to runway 1.54 miles.

Doug Semler wrote:

On Jul 23, 5:43 pm, "karl gruber" wrote:

Correct. That's why there's a little * next to the 1120*.



Unless they changed the rules of footnoting on me, the only thing the
little * next to 1120 tells me is that DME is required when the tower
is closed. Presumably to identify CULVE.

Correct, but the note is a bit ambiguous. DME is not required when the
tower is closed unless you want to identify CULVE and use the lower MDA.

On 2007-07-23, karl gruber wrote:
Not with DME, you'll be at 680 far before CULVE.

Karl


If you cannot identify CULVE, you descent to 1120 after BEVEY
and wait to see the runway or go missed at the VOR.
If you can identify CULVE, you descent to 680 after BEVEY and
wait to see the runway or go missed at the VOR.
So what does really identifying CULVE do for you if you are
already down to 680 by the the time you identify it?

--

SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

On Jul 23, 7:28 pm, "pgbnh" wrote:
OK, now I admit to being confused.

I read the chart as 'the MDA is 1120 unless equipped with dme or receiving
radar advisories so that CULVE can be indentified, in which case the MDA is
680.' The asterisk next to the 1120 is, I believe, indicating that the MDA
is 1120 unless (see the other half of the asterisk below) DME or Radar
equipped, inwhich case it is 680. With DME I do not see a requirement to
stay at 1120 to CULVE and THEN descend to 680. Rather, I believe it says I
can descend to 680 (with DME) once I pass BEVEY.

I also do not agree with the statement "You cannot descend below 1120 prior
to CULVE
even if you see the runway unless you either cancel, get a contact
approach, or a visual approach.". 91.175 clearly states that I can descend
below MDA when I have the runway environment (lightts, etc) in sight. No
restrictions on when I can begin a descent below MDA. Were there a VDP,
different situation, but no VDP on this approach.

So I stand by what I said earlier. I can be at 680 BEFORE CULVE, AND, if I
have the runway environment, I can be below 680 even earlier.

I also reserve the right to be wrong


This is where my confusion is as well. The profile view of the
approach says _1120_ next to CULVE. All information I have ever read
makes that a crossing restriction (step downs and all that, the 1120
with a line below it means that 1120 is your floor). There is an *
next to that number. However, the * references a note that says DME
required if tower closed. If there was a lower crossing restriction
if DME equipped, I would have expected the footnote to reference the
lower altitude that would be allowed (and i could have sworn I have
seen this before, but of course I wouldn't be able to remember where/
if/when I saw this.