PW-6U by Jezow being delivered

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

Charles Yeates wrote:
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

Gee, only about US $90K delivered. I'm not complaining, it's probably a
bargain compared to a new K-21 or DG-505. I just find it amusing that
some wonder why a lot a clubs stick with their 2-33s...

Marc

On Aug 14, 6:08 pm, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Charles Yeates wrote:
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

Gee, only about US $90K delivered. I'm not complaining, it's probably a
bargain compared to a new K-21 or DG-505. I just find it amusing that
some wonder why a lot a clubs stick with their 2-33s...

Marc

A DG1000 is around $170,000, or $200,000 for one with a sustainer.
They're amazing gliders though. Can be used for basic training, full
aerobatics, or for beating Duo Discuses on cross-countries while the
front pilot has somewhere to put his stuff.

These PW6s look quite good value and make far more sense than the PW5
ever did. They're much cheaper than anything else in their class and
they make a good impression - a good, strong, modern ship. It might
take 10 years for a club to pay for one, but think of the benefits -
impresses visitors (=more members), can be used for XC training (=more
membership progression), generally a damn sight nicer to fly than a
tired old glider...


Dan

Dan G wrote:
A DG1000 is around $170,000, or $200,000 for one with a sustainer.
They're amazing gliders though. Can be used for basic training, full
aerobatics, or for beating Duo Discuses on cross-countries while the
front pilot has somewhere to put his stuff.

Which is roughly 10 to 15 times the cost of the typical club glider here
in the US. There are tradeoffs, many clubs have a lot of members who
rarely fly but are willing to pay the dues. If a club significantly
raises the dues to cover a new glider, they usually lose members in the
short term. If a club sells off a number of tired old gliders to raise
capital for a new one, they also run the risk of losing members due to
fewer available gliders to fly. Maybe the membership will rise to
higher levels later due to nice gliders, maybe it won't.

These PW6s look quite good value and make far more sense than the PW5
ever did. They're much cheaper than anything else in their class and
they make a good impression - a good, strong, modern ship. It might
take 10 years for a club to pay for one, but think of the benefits -
impresses visitors (=more members), can be used for XC training (=more
membership progression), generally a damn sight nicer to fly than a
tired old glider...

Bank loans to clubs are rarely a viable option in the US, so in many
cases pulling this off is dependent on having members with deep pockets
willing to make long term low interest loans. I've seen this work in a
few cases, I've also seen cases where the "nice" glider ends up being an
expensive white elephant that drives members out of the club. Years ago
I left a club and formed a syndicate with other departing members to buy
a Duo, as we couldn't make the finances work inside the club.

Bay Area Soaring Associates here in the SF Bay area has managed to get
on DG-1000 in their fleet, and has a second one on order. Any members
care to comment on how you all managed to handle the finances?

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:
Bay Area Soaring Associates here in the SF Bay area has managed to get
on DG-1000 in their fleet, and has a second one on order. Any members
care to comment on how you all managed to handle the finances?

We financed the first DG-1000 by selling off a Grob 103, using some of
our "new glider fund" savings, and largely by borrowing money from members.

We managed to pay the loans off faster than expected (having the ship
helped us get some members, I'm sure), so we have the second one on
order. Sadly, the Euro vs. Dollar makes the second one quite a bit more
expensive than the first, which we bought from Charlie Hayes.

Someday we need to replace our other Grob 103. Ideally, we'd get an
ASK-21, but they're REALLY hard to find used and nearly the same cost as
a DG-505 when bought new.

It'll be interesting to see where we end up...

Jeremy (a BASA member)

When buying new, what lead you to get a second DG-1000 rather than
diversifying by getting a Duo Discus?




Jeremy Zawodny wrote:
Marc Ramsey wrote:
Bay Area Soaring Associates here in the SF Bay area has managed to get
on DG-1000 in their fleet, and has a second one on order. Any members
care to comment on how you all managed to handle the finances?

We financed the first DG-1000 by selling off a Grob 103, using some of
our "new glider fund" savings, and largely by borrowing money from members.

We managed to pay the loans off faster than expected (having the ship
helped us get some members, I'm sure), so we have the second one on
order. Sadly, the Euro vs. Dollar makes the second one quite a bit more
expensive than the first, which we bought from Charlie Hayes.

Someday we need to replace our other Grob 103. Ideally, we'd get an
ASK-21, but they're REALLY hard to find used and nearly the same cost as
a DG-505 when bought new.

It'll be interesting to see where we end up...

Jeremy (a BASA member)

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
Charles Yeates wrote:
http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/yeatesc/world.html

Gee, only about US $90K delivered. I'm not complaining, it's probably a
bargain compared to a new K-21 or DG-505. I just find it amusing that
some wonder why a lot a clubs stick with their 2-33s...

Marc

2-33's are cheap. Shooting yourself in the foot is also cheap. 2-33's are
cheap for a very good reason - they're terrible gliders.

2-33's have done untold damage to American soaring. Since 2-33's were
introduced as many as a hundred thousand potential glider pilots have walked
away because they were introduced to the sport with a ride in a 2-33. In
the long run, THAT was expensive.

When 2-33's were introduced in the late 1960's they cost $25,000. In todays
Dollars, that's $145,000. by comparison, the PW-6U is a screaming bargan.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:


When 2-33's were introduced in the late 1960's they cost $25,000. In todays
Dollars, that's $145,000. by comparison, the PW-6U is a screaming bargain.


That sounds high. I think I could have bought a new Cessna 180 during
the same period for that price. But if the 2-33 sold for $12,500 in
those days the PW-6U would still be a bargain.

Our club is about to acquire its second ASK-21. That's a good choice,
but they are few and far between, and they aren't new at a price a
club can afford.



Jack

Bill Daniels wrote:
2-33's are cheap. Shooting yourself in the foot is also cheap. 2-33's are
cheap for a very good reason - they're terrible gliders.

I've flown some terrible gliders, 2-33s aren't terrible. They're cheap
because they're old and there are still a lot of them around, and fewer
people flying.

2-33's have done untold damage to American soaring. Since 2-33's were
introduced as many as a hundred thousand potential glider pilots have walked
away because they were introduced to the sport with a ride in a 2-33. In
the long run, THAT was expensive.

Since the 2-33 was introduced a lot of people, like myself, learned to
fly in them, and otherwise might not have had the opportunity. I
started in the late 60 and early 70s, and from my perspective, without
the 2-33 there would be no American soaring today. I got to fly the
occasional K7 and K13 back then, and most ended up broken, with no local
knowledge on how to fix them. The 2-33 was far more robust, and could
be repaired by just about any shade tree A&P back then (and now).

When 2-33's were introduced in the late 1960's they cost $25,000. In todays
Dollars, that's $145,000. by comparison, the PW-6U is a screaming bargan.

Clubs don't have $145,000 2-33s today, they have $10,000 2-33s. Yes,
there are a few clubs that can afford upwards of $90,000 to get a shiny
new trainer, and I would encourage them to do so (after they get a shiny
new winch, of course), but most can't. Just look at what is being asked
for ratty old K21s, if you can find one. 2-33s aren't killing American
soaring, the unbalanced US economy and lack of manufacturing innovation
in the glider industry is killing it...

Marc

I must disagree, respectably, with your opinion Mark.

You wont find a 2-33 in a German club, you will find new shiny ships and LOTS of new pilots. Do you get that in the US? Now, are memberships rising or falling in the US? And in Germany? Ahhhhh, see a link?

I used to say "how can we afford that?" as well, until some wit pointed out that we couldnt afford NOT to go with expensive gliders.
Build it and they will come.
Mr Daniels is right on the money, youngsters now have a new phone every 2 years, a new car every 3 years, a mortgage no-one can really afford, 3 ipods, a PDA, $250 sunglasses and a wardrobe of jeans the cost of which would support a small african country.

Do you honestly think they will be enticed into gliding if offered an antique 2-33?

New Pooch, PW-6, ASK or whichever, they will all be better than a tin or fabric floater for the bling factor alone.



Bagger