Ferry flight a commercial op?

"Helen" wrote in message
news:PmG_i.9313$Vp3.521@trnddc05...

The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.


Can you reference case that they actually have?

On 2007-11-14 10:47:07 -0800, "Maxwell" said:


"Helen" wrote in message
news:PmG_i.9313$Vp3.521@trnddc05...

The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.


Can you reference case that they actually have?

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
news:2007111412152311272-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
On 2007-11-14 10:47:07 -0800, "Maxwell" said:


"Helen" wrote in message
news:PmG_i.9313$Vp3.521@trnddc05...

The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.


Can you reference case that they actually have?

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf


That order doesn't say that.

C J Campbell wrote in
news:2007111412152311272-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

On 2007-11-14 10:47:07 -0800, "Maxwell" said:


"Helen" wrote in message
news:PmG_i.9313$Vp3.521@trnddc05...

The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.


Can you reference case that they actually have?

http://www.ntsb.gov/alj/O_n_O/docs/AVIATION/4583.pdf


That's not a ferry flight. That's carrying pax for hire. The parachutists
paid to fly.
So, both the letter and spirit of the law were clearly violated in this
case.
Any private pilot can carry his friend up and have him jump out of his
airplane. the chutist can even kick in for gas...


Bertie

On Nov 14, 12:36 pm, Helen wrote:
The FAA can consider the logging of "free flight time" as compensation.

Helen



If you use that time to qualify for a rating or to satisfy recency
experience, then they might have a case. Labeling any flight time as
compensation is bogus. You can log whatever you want. You can even log
flights you made at your local video arcade. The FAA has no business
looking into your personal logs except the ones you submit to them as
satisfying the required recency experience, which better be true and
correct. They would need a court order to ask for all other
information such as personal logbooks and financial records, and you
would have to have done something very serious for them to go that
far. For that matter, you can't accept money for driving your grandma
to the drug store either. That is commercial operation.

On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 22:27:12 -0600, "Maxwell"
wrote:

If your club is not specifically charging the new owner to deliver the
aircraft,

and you are not receiving compensation for delivering it,

you are good to go.

I have never heard of a case where accruing hours during a flight was
considered compensation.


As a club member, don't you own the aircraft?

And as Maxwell points out, no consideration or compensation is
involved in delivery.

I have a partner in my airplane. If one of us ferries the airplane to
the radio shop, etc... we don't pay the kitty for flight time, the
kitty pays for the gas.

I'd do it.

On 2007-11-13 16:01:14 -0800, (Paul Tomblin) said:

Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?

It is not clear. After all, you are not carrying passengers or cargo
'for hire.' Neither are you getting paid, beyond the possible exception
of the value of the flight time. Aircraft salesmen are allowed to
demonstrate the airplane to customers. Presumably they are also flying
the plane to the city where the aircraft will be demoed.

§Â*61.113Â*Â*Â*Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section,
no person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in
command of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for
compensation or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire,
act as pilot in command of an aircraft.
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation
or hire.
(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the
operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses
involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.
(d) A private pilot may act as pilot in command of a charitable,
nonprofit, or community event flight described in §91.146, if the
sponsor and pilot comply with the requirements of §91.146.
(e) A private pilot may be reimbursed for aircraft operating expenses
that are directly related to search and location operations, provided
the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental
fees, and the operation is sanctioned and under the direction and
control of:
(1) A local, State, or Federal agency; or
(2) An organization that conducts search and location operations.
(f) A private pilot who is an aircraft salesman and who has at least
200 hours of logged flight time may demonstrate an aircraft in flight
to a prospective buyer.
(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of §61.69 may act as a
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.
Furthermore, your club can charge any price that it wants for 'renting'
the aircraft to you, including nothing at all or even paying for your
fuel.

§Â*61.133Â*Â*Â*Commercial pilot privileges and limitations.
(a) Privileges —(1) General. A person who holds a commercial pilot
certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft—
(i) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the
person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the
applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation; and
(ii) For compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in
accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter
that apply to the operation.
It is quite clear that any commercial pilot may ferry the aircraft for
compensation or hire if it is not carrying passengers or property. This
is not a part 135 or commercial airline operation, after all. So, you
could, if you were a commercial pilot, charge anything you like for the
flight and maybe even do some commercial aerial photography along the
way.

Part 119 governs whether a flight is covered by the flight rules for
commercial airlines. Note particularly 119.1(e)(3):

§Â*119.1Â*Â*Â*Applicability.
...
(e) Except for operations when common carriage is not involved
conducted with airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of 20
seats or more, excluding any required crewmember seat, or a payload
capacity of 6,000 pounds or more, this part does not apply to—
(1) Student instruction;
(2) Nonstop Commercial Air Tours conducted after September 11, 2007, in
an airplane or helicopter having a standard airworthiness certificate
and passenger-seat configuration of 30 seats or fewer and a maximum
payload capacity of 7,500 pounds or less that begin and end at the same
airport, and are conducted within a 25-statute mile radius of that
airport, in compliance with the Letter of Authorization issued under
§91.147 of this chapter. For nonstop Commercial Air Tours conducted in
accordance with part 136, subpart B of this chapter, National Parks Air
Tour Management, the requirements of part 119 of this chapter apply
unless excepted in §136.37(g)(2). For Nonstop Commercial Air Tours
conducted in the vicinity of the Grand Canyon National Park, Arizona,
the requirements of SFAR 50–2, part 93, subpart U, and part 119 of this
chapter, as applicable, apply.
(3) Ferry or training flights;
(4) Aerial work operations, including—
(i) Crop dusting, seeding, spraying, and bird chasing;
(ii) Banner towing;
(iii) Aerial photography or survey;
(iv) Fire fighting;
(v) Helicopter operations in construction or repair work (but it does
apply to transportation to and from the site of operations); and
(vi) Powerline or pipeline patrol;
(5) Sightseeing flights conducted in hot air balloons;
(6) Nonstop flights conducted within a 25-statute-mile radius of the
airport of takeoff carrying persons or objects for the purpose of
conducting intentional parachute operations.
(7) Helicopter flights conducted within a 25 statute mile radius of the
airport of takeoff if—
(i) Not more than two passengers are carried in the helicopter in
addition to the required flightcrew;
(ii) Each flight is made under day VFR conditions;
(iii) The helicopter used is certificated in the standard category and
complies with the 100-hour inspection requirements of part 91 of this
chapter;
(iv) The operator notifies the FAA Flight Standards District Office
responsible for the geographic area concerned at least 72 hours before
each flight and furnishes any essential information that the office
requests;
(v) The number of flights does not exceed a total of six in any calendar year;
(vi) Each flight has been approved by the Administrator; and
(vii) Cargo is not carried in or on the helicopter;
(8) Operations conducted under part 133 of this chapter or 375 of this title;
(9) Emergency mail service conducted under 49 U.S.C. 41906; or
(10) Operations conducted under the provisions of §91.321 of this chapter.
Ferry flights are a specific exception to the rules for common
carriers, so a commercial pilot could ferry your Lance for compensation
or hire without meeting the requirements for common carriers.

The question is, could you, as a private pilot, ferry the plane? I can
just about guarantee that the CFI who claims that it is a commercial
operation will report it to the FAA as such. He probably wants the job
and will be offended by your flying it for free. Never mind whether he
is actually competent to fly the Lance, you understand, it is just that
he thinks he should do the job and get paid for it.

Or he might simply be an incompetent CFI who has a poor understanding
of the FARs and he thinks you need to be part 135 to fly ferry flights.

Whatever. This guy is Trouble with a capital T. It is entirely up to
you whether you want to deal with it or not. Best way to head off such
trouble is to simply call the FSDO in advance and get their take on it.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 11:34:57 -0800, C J Campbell
wrote in
2007111411345743658-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

Best way to head off such
trouble is to simply call the FSDO in advance and get their take on it.

Right. And get the FSDO Inspector to cite the regulation(s) upon
which his interpretation is based.

In a previous article, (Paul Tomblin) said:
Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?

Oh well, the point is now moot. The new owner decided to pick it up
himself. Darn.

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
A fool and his money are soon flying more airplane than he can handle.

On Nov 13, 7:01 pm, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
Our flying club sold our PA32R Lance because very few people were flying
it. As one of that few, I offered to ferry it out to the buyer. A CFI in
the club said I can't, because it's a commercial operation, even though
I'm not getting paid. Is he right?


I don't think the CFI is correct. It is not a commercial operation,
but I still would not want to stick my neck out to do the ferry
flight.
Has the airplane been sold, or is the sale pending? If it has been
sold, then you have to know whose insurance you are flying under. What
if the new owner says there are some dents in the fuselage that
weren't there when he made the deal? It's not worth it unless the
buyer is a famly member or personal friend. I would stay out of it.