soaring into the future

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...
I think this discussion is going the wrong way. If you are going to
redefine soaring in the future, you don't start with the hardware -
you have to define what the sport of soaring is going to evolve
into.

As far as low cost gliders, guys, they already exist - been to a local
paraglider/hangglider field lately?

But as long (and I want to caveat this statement by emphasizing that
I'm talking about soaring in the US, not other countries) as we
attempt to push soaring as "a cheap way to fly" it will continue to
stagnate.

You see it at all but a few enlightened glider operations: Emphasis
on "how inexpensive" soaring is compared to power flying; training in
beat-up low performance antique gliders, availability of similar beat-
up low performance antique gliders for post-solo/ post license flying
- and the new glider pilot gets bored and wanders off to spend his
money on a pair of new quads, or a bass boat, etc. And you are left
with the old codgers who leaned to fly in primaries and think a 1-26
is the bees knees, or total glassholes who get serious on their own
and discover the dark side - that soaring is a SPORT, not just a way
to fly.

You want to grow soaring? Look at all those clowns riding their $3000
carbon fiber bicycles wearing gaudy spandex. Most will never actually
race, but they enjoy pretending, and socializing, and riding with
their friends in race-like conditions.

Or check out all the motocross bikes being ridden for fun - most never
actually race, but it's fun to pretend, and it's even more fun to play
with the same hardware the pro's use!

Yet at many glider clubs, just try to suggest that the club should
push XC, or racing, or that every student should be required to get
his Silver. The howls of "we don't want to race", "XC is dangerous",
"that's not what the club should be teaching", and "soaring isn't
about XC and racing" get deafening.

Interestingly, this attitude often from some old codger, as he gets
into his pristine ASW-20 for a 3 hour local flight, while the newly
minted glider pilot struggles through his mandated 1-hour flight in
the club single seater (glass, if he's lucky), knowing that if he
DARES to landout, there will be hell to pay (since there isn't a
trailer for the glider, and nobody knows how to derig it anyway...).

So - While new developments in gliders are always welcome (and we
desperately need to replace all those horrible 2-33s and 1-26s in club
fleets), we also have to define our sport, and get that image out
where the people with the time and money to soar are waiting to be
discovered

A final thought - when was the last time there was a cover story about
soaring in Sports Illustrated? Or any story? SSA, what's your
excuse?

Kirk
66

PS: Winch launching is the future. 2000' with no noise, fun even
when there isn't any lift, green (get those Prius buyers
interested...). Combine with sexy glass ships, and people will stop
by to watch the show....

Well said.

Bill Daniels

Great stuff Kirk. I agree with nearly every point you make. I've
personally suffered under the "old codger" effect, have heard the
howls of "XC is dangerous", and have spent some considerable hours
clowning around on expensive bicycles too.

But I think that we DO have to address the hardware side of things in
terms of costs. Those cycling clowns are riding $3000 bikes not
$30000 bikes. The hang and paraglider ships dont necessarily offer
the safety or performance of a sailplane. The low cost gliders that
exist are the vintage neglected birds that can be bought for used car
prices.

Guys like the Cherokee Kid, Tony on this forum, ARE the future of this
sport. He's flying a nearly antique glider cross country nearly every
time he launches. He can do this because his glider and trailer cost
about what a typical college kid could spend on a decent used car. I
hate to think of all the people out there who would love to do what
he's doing but don't have a glider available to them.

And on the topic of launch methods... I believe the future of the
sport is in electric self launch for single seaters and maybe winch
for training and event centers. But that is really another topic.

MM

MM

On Dec 27, 5:57 pm, wrote:
Great stuff Kirk. I agree with nearly every point you make. I've
personally suffered under the "old codger" effect, have heard the
howls of "XC is dangerous", and have spent some considerable hours
clowning around on expensive bicycles too.

But I think that we DO have to address the hardware side of things in
terms of costs. Those cycling clowns are riding $3000 bikes not
$30000 bikes. The hang and paraglider ships dont necessarily offer
the safety or performance of a sailplane. The low cost gliders that
exist are the vintage neglected birds that can be bought for used car
prices.

Guys like the Cherokee Kid, Tony on this forum, ARE the future of this
sport. He's flying a nearly antique glider cross country nearly every
time he launches. He can do this because his glider and trailer cost
about what a typical college kid could spend on a decent used car. I
hate to think of all the people out there who would love to do what
he's doing but don't have a glider available to them.

And on the topic of launch methods... I believe the future of the
sport is in electric self launch for single seaters and maybe winch
for training and event centers. But that is really another topic.

MM

MM

Partnerships, m'boy, partnerships.

Been in four over the years, and it's always been a rewarding
experience. I expect to be in a couple more in the next year or so.

Frank Whiteley

Frank Whiteley wrote:
Partnerships, m'boy, partnerships.

Been in four over the years, and it's always been a rewarding
experience. I expect to be in a couple more in the next year or so.

10 years ago I was able afford a new glider on my own. 5 years ago I
was able to buy a new glider with a partner. Now, I'll consider myself
lucky to be able to get a decent 20 year old glider with a partner. I
don't even want to think about the situation 5 years from now...

Marc

The guys riding motocross and carbon fiber bikes do it because of speed and
thrill. A 10 minute boring aerotow is a turnoff. A 40 second 2G winch
launch is just what these guys are looking for.

Winch launching is about FUN. Saving money needs to be viewed as a
byproduct that lets you buy even better toys.

Mike Schumann

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...
I think this discussion is going the wrong way. If you are going to
redefine soaring in the future, you don't start with the hardware -
you have to define what the sport of soaring is going to evolve
into.

As far as low cost gliders, guys, they already exist - been to a local
paraglider/hangglider field lately?

But as long (and I want to caveat this statement by emphasizing that
I'm talking about soaring in the US, not other countries) as we
attempt to push soaring as "a cheap way to fly" it will continue to
stagnate.

You see it at all but a few enlightened glider operations: Emphasis
on "how inexpensive" soaring is compared to power flying; training in
beat-up low performance antique gliders, availability of similar beat-
up low performance antique gliders for post-solo/ post license flying
- and the new glider pilot gets bored and wanders off to spend his
money on a pair of new quads, or a bass boat, etc. And you are left
with the old codgers who leaned to fly in primaries and think a 1-26
is the bees knees, or total glassholes who get serious on their own
and discover the dark side - that soaring is a SPORT, not just a way
to fly.

You want to grow soaring? Look at all those clowns riding their $3000
carbon fiber bicycles wearing gaudy spandex. Most will never actually
race, but they enjoy pretending, and socializing, and riding with
their friends in race-like conditions.

Or check out all the motocross bikes being ridden for fun - most never
actually race, but it's fun to pretend, and it's even more fun to play
with the same hardware the pro's use!

Yet at many glider clubs, just try to suggest that the club should
push XC, or racing, or that every student should be required to get
his Silver. The howls of "we don't want to race", "XC is dangerous",
"that's not what the club should be teaching", and "soaring isn't
about XC and racing" get deafening.

Interestingly, this attitude often from some old codger, as he gets
into his pristine ASW-20 for a 3 hour local flight, while the newly
minted glider pilot struggles through his mandated 1-hour flight in
the club single seater (glass, if he's lucky), knowing that if he
DARES to landout, there will be hell to pay (since there isn't a
trailer for the glider, and nobody knows how to derig it anyway...).

So - While new developments in gliders are always welcome (and we
desperately need to replace all those horrible 2-33s and 1-26s in club
fleets), we also have to define our sport, and get that image out
where the people with the time and money to soar are waiting to be
discovered

A final thought - when was the last time there was a cover story about
soaring in Sports Illustrated? Or any story? SSA, what's your
excuse?

Kirk
66

PS: Winch launching is the future. 2000' with no noise, fun even
when there isn't any lift, green (get those Prius buyers
interested...). Combine with sexy glass ships, and people will stop
by to watch the show....



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

At 14:24 27 December 2007, John Galloway wrote:

It has always puzzled me why someone in the US hasn't
already approached Mike Grove at Skylaunch with a view
to building Skylaunches under licence instead of trying
to re-invent the winches that Skylaunch has eclipsed.
That way you would have a thoroughly proven system,
be able to source GM marine V8s and transmission units
locally, and not have to transport heavy mechanical
assemblies across the Atlantic at all.

I've heard that Skylaunch don't want to know as they
realise that the first time some numpty in America
spins off one of their winches (or winch designs) they're
liable to get their ass sued to the ends of the earth
by an ambulance chasing lawyer.

Our club operates a winch from a public airport. The
FOB manager is very supportive. It takes some planning.
It requires you to discuss with your club and discuss
directly with the FOB manager. Prepare a presentation
(BTW nothing fancy), prepare a written agreement, discuss
safety, operations, and the airports revenue sharing
amount. This is a critical step as most FOB managers
must report the activity to the city/county airport
board. The BGA has emmense experience and offer a lot
of documentation to assist you. USE IT. Back up what
you tell the FOB. Bring in some experienced winch operators
for your first weekend. It works.

I was thinking about the bait switch today and how
that works. I laughed when I thought about a reverse
way to use it. One of our students had been training
on aero tow. Paying about $30/tow. He was only doing
2-3 tows every couple of weeks. You could see he was
on the edge of losing interest. Our winch operations
came along at just the right time. We only charge $10/waunch.
This student took 3 waunches the first day and 9 waunches
the next. He was so hooked he then ran for a club officer
position. He exclaimed '9 flights for the price of
3'. WOW.
So have a new student pay for 3 aero tows for $90,
then introduce them to 9 waunches for the same price.
And guess what, they also get 3 times the practice.

If you want a copy of our presentation and other materials,
drop me a line.


SAM


At 16:42 28 December 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:

'toad' wrote in message
.
com...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think
the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt
that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would
allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with
aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the
US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated
an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the
northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that
has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several
million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive
compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch
and the response was
'bring it on'. It seems almost universal that glider
pilots assume winch
operations would be turned down so they don't actually
ask. Ask in a
reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally
served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations
at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared.
(Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.)
That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which,
to a degree, depends on
public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring
100's of operations per
day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good,
particularly if those
operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots
of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't
hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.

Our club operates a winch from a public airport. The
FOB manager is very supportive. It takes some planning.
It requires you to discuss with your club and discuss
directly with the FOB manager. Prepare a presentation
(BTW nothing fancy), prepare a written agreement, discuss
safety, operations, and the airports revenue sharing
amount. This is a critical step as most FOB managers
must report the activity to the city/county airport
board. The BGA has emmense experience and offer a lot
of documentation to assist you. USE IT. Back up what
you tell the FOB. Bring in some experienced winch operators
for your first weekend. It works.

I was thinking about the bait switch today and how
that works. I laughed when I thought about a reverse
way to use it. One of our students had been training
on aero tow. Paying about $30/tow. He was only doing
2-3 tows every couple of weeks. You could see he was
on the edge of losing interest. Our winch operations
came along at just the right time. We only charge $10/waunch.
This student took 3 waunches the first day and 9 waunches
the next. He was so hooked he then ran for a club officer
position. He exclaimed '9 flights for the price of
3'. WOW.
So have a new student pay for 3 aero tows for $90,
then introduce them to 9 waunches for the same price.
And guess what, they also get 3 times the practice.

If you want a copy of our presentation and other materials,
drop me a line.


SAM


At 16:42 28 December 2007, Bill Daniels wrote:

'toad' wrote in message
.
com...
Sorry that I'm late to the discussion, but I think
the issue about
winches in the US is primarily about land. I doubt
that there are
very few public use airports in the US that would
allow winch
operations. There are only a few that put up with
aero tow glider
operations. So to start a winch operation in the
US you would have
to own enough land and be able to get it designated
an airport (hard
to do politically) to allow winch operation. In the
northeastern US,
there is only one glider clubs that I know of that
has the space to do
it, at Philadelphia.

The land for such an operation would cost several
million dollars at
todays prices. Aero tow doesn't sound so expensive
compared to paying
for that mortgage.

Todd Smith
3S

Todd, I think you overstate the situation.

I have asked three airport managers about winch launch
and the response was
'bring it on'. It seems almost universal that glider
pilots assume winch
operations would be turned down so they don't actually
ask. Ask in a
reasonable way and you may be surprised at the answer.

Managers of small airports that have traditionally
served small, single
engine airplanes have seen the number of operations
at their airports drop
dramatically as the price of 100LL avgas has soared.
(Many predict 100LL
will become non-existant within the next three years.)
That drop in
operations has them worried about their jobs which,
to a degree, depends on
public demand for airport services.

Against this background, a proposal that would bring
100's of operations per
day, even if they are gliders, can look pretty good,
particularly if those
operations don't generate noise complaints.

Work up an reasonable winch operations plan with lots
of information about
other successful operations and present it. Can't
hurt.

Bill Daniels
p.s. I you want help, e-mail me.

[From the Wiktionary]
Geezer is a British slang term, in its simplest form
meaning a man.

Derived from the differently pronounced 'guiser', a
name for an actor in a mime. [1] Possibly related to
disguise. In this sense it refers to a kind of everyman.

It may be used in a number of senses; to refer to a
man whose name you do not know, similar to use of the
word guy. It is also used to refer to a man who is
overtly manly, masculine, or heterosexual, also someone
noticeably capable, reliable, plainspeaking or down-to-earth.
Although essentially a masculine quality it is not
synonymous with macho however, and its usage may be
thought of as very similar to that of the US English
word dude. Example: Joe Cole referred to Prince William
as a 'nice, relaxed geezer.' [2] In the British 1971
pop song by the Piglets, aka Jonathon King, 'Johnny
Reggae' was described as being 'a real tasty geezer'.

In the United States and Canada, geezer generally refers
to an old man, or more liberally, any old person, usually
eccentric. This may derive from redundant use of the
word old in English as in: who's that old geezer? where
the subject is not necessarily an elderly person. [3].
This is an example of etymological contamination.

In Australia, the term geezer is often used to refer
to someone from England, due to the belief that the
English say geezer a lot; however, it is not as popular
as the term pommy.[citation needed]

Because the population is aging in America, the term
is slowly being broadened to include older women as
well and imply a kind of colorful eccentricity, as
well. For example, The Geezer Brigade, an online humor
organization for 'clever old people', is split between
men and women whose average age is 70.
[End of quote]

The Germans have a term Geise which means an old man
and it is a very respectful term.

[edit] Other usesAt 21:54 28 December 2007, Frank Whiteley
wrote:
On Dec 28, 2:45 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Frank Whiteley wrote:
You will get much less objection to establishing
a new gliderport with
a winch than a tow plane. Land can also be mixed
use, and leased,
rather than purchased. Local regulations can be
problematic or not.
If you are in a club, you will likely get more objection
from your
geezer members to setting up a winch only club than
you will from
neighbors.

I'd like to ask a favor of everyone: let's find a
more accurate and less
prejudicial term than 'geezer' for people that don't
want change or
reflexively favor aerotow. It's gratuitous, and disparagement
apparently
based on age isn't going to win any of the friends
we'll need to improve
soaring. It may also blind people to the fact that
a lot of us 'geezers'
support smaller, simpler, lighter, and cheaper soaring.

Maybe 'reflexive aerotow promoters', 'anti-change
group', or
'short-sighted club officers'?

Or even skip the label entirely. The above statement
could have used
'some members' just as effectively as 'geezer', especially
since the
poster was just speculating.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change 'netto' to 'net' to email me directly
* 'Transponders in Sailplanes'http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* 'A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation'
atwww.motorglider.org

Even though I am one, I apologize. Resistence to change
comes at any
age when someone's comfort level is challenged.

Frank

Where is 'here?' Does =A37,500 mean Australian 'Thalers?'

Most of us think r.a.s. is at home.

At 22:24 28 December 2007, Ian wrote:
On 26 Dec, 22:31,
wrote:

Well, the PW-5 did not failed. It was designed to
meet the
requirements and concept promoted by the FAI. That
concept called for
glider with L/D in low 30-ties.

But the FAI didn't specify the price, did they? If
the PW-5 had cost
=A37,500 fully instrumented and with trailer they'd
have sold lots here.
But priced alongside second hand Pegases they didn't
stand a chance.

Ian