US "heroes" kill 9 children

In article ,
Scott MacEachern wrote:

On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:57:27 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

The attack at Halabja was fighters dropping 250 pound chemical bombs.

That's the common report we've gotten from actual eyewitnesses.

I would be interested in knowing the source of that actual report,
then. (No dissing in this case, I would like to know where it comes
from, and to be able to judge for myself whether it is definitive.)

This has a decent description:
("The March 16 Chemical Attack on Halabja")
Specific mention of attack aircraft, not copters.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ANFAL3.htm

This one mentions MiG-26s, but they probably meant MiG-23 or -27.
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/press/0710chem.htm

I *did* see some suggestion that at least part of the Halabja chemical
attack was by rockets and artillery, and that the jets were just
dropping cluster bombs and regular minutions. But Iraq did also use 250
kg mustard gas bombs versus Iranian towns, so that's in the mix, too.

This is after digging through a *lot* of descriptions of the Halabja
attack over the last couple of days, and trying to remember what I read
yesterday. And I still can't find anything like an eyewitness
description that mentions helicopters used in the attack itself - just
one recon chopper taking photos, or dropping pieces of paper to judge
wind speed.

I've found references to some copters being used in other places to
deliver chemical weapons, but most of them were apparently white
phosphorus rockets fired to keep people in place for artillery and
fighter bombardments with chemicals. Helicopters were having a hard
time in the Kurdish areas in 1988, due to ground fire, so delivering
chemicals by copter would have been pretty risky compared to dropping
bombs from jets or firing off artillery/rockets, and low-level spraying
would have been just plain nuts.

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Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 21:59:12 -0800, Steve Hix
wrote:

They didn't get AH-6/MH-6, did they?

No, I don't think that 160 SOAR lets too many out of their sight. So
what? The Defender's essentially the same aircraft. Point is, these
are hardly 'support types', as you said.

No, it was 120 (lots being Hughes 300s) compared to 384 others.

Gee, in that case are the 169 French helicopters insignificant
compared to the 335 (Russian and American) other ones? I'm interested
in the math that you're using for this. And 30 of the 126 were Hughes
300s.

Scott

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 04:19:34 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

As far as transport copters, the Iraqis had plenty of actual big Russian
transport copters, four-seat Bell machines aren't even going to rate.

4-seat?? I think that you'll find that Bell 214STs are considerably
larger than that!

Like those MiG-25s that were "still in service" buried under six feet of
sand, I suppose.

It gives an amagamated number for all of those helicopters, from all
nations. Some were no doubt out of service... but there's no evidence
that the American ones were particularly so.

Scott

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 03:57:28 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

If $5 million in copters (over 15 years ago) is "substantial," then what
do you consider the billions in sales by Russia, along with the years
upon years of *actual* military aid and training?

Very substantial indeed. But if the USA sold 120+ helicopters to
Saddam Hussein for _$5 million_ (that is, less than $50,000/apiece)
they were giving them to him! In fact, the figure I've seen for just
the sale of the 214s was $200 million... which makes a lot more sense.

Scott

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 06:42:35 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

This has a decent description:
("The March 16 Chemical Attack on Halabja")
Specific mention of attack aircraft, not copters.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ANFAL3.htm

That's what I was reading from the HRW site as well, although the
connection between the aircraft and gas isn't direct. "In the
afternoon, at about 3:00, those who remained in the shelters became
aware of an unusual smell."

You may be right, for the reasons that you give concerning
antiaircraft threats in Kurdistan atthe time... but note that both the
LA Times and the Guardian quoted sources that said that the 214s had
been involved.

Scott

In article ,
Scott MacEachern wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 04:19:34 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

As far as transport copters, the Iraqis had plenty of actual big Russian
transport copters, four-seat Bell machines aren't even going to rate.

4-seat?? I think that you'll find that Bell 214STs are considerably
larger than that!

I was referring to the Defenders, forgot about the "Super Transport"
214ST... lots of seats, no external hardpoints.

But still very tiny when compared to the monster Russian copters that
were in service in Iraq.

....and according to this story, only two of them were still in service
as of January...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,74743,00.html

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

In article ,
Scott MacEachern wrote:

On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 06:42:35 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

This has a decent description:
("The March 16 Chemical Attack on Halabja")
Specific mention of attack aircraft, not copters.
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/ANFAL3.htm

That's what I was reading from the HRW site as well, although the
connection between the aircraft and gas isn't direct. "In the
afternoon, at about 3:00, those who remained in the shelters became
aware of an unusual smell."

You may be right, for the reasons that you give concerning
antiaircraft threats in Kurdistan atthe time... but note that both the
LA Times and the Guardian quoted sources that said that the 214s had
been involved.

The reports of the 214s being involved seem to all have come from
opinion pieces, not actual reporting. If you read some of the older,
non-eyewitness stories, you run into the phrase "it is believed" a lot.

Which, oddly enough, seems to have been quoted without attribution from
that same Mark Phythian guy who keeps selling books based on the idea
that the US and Britain armed Iraq (while ignoring everyone else, who
*really* sold them the weapons, and are still trying to collect on the
bills).

The US was really a very minor player in Iraq for most of the last three
decades.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 05:31:03 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:


...and according to this story, only two of them were still in service
as of January...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,74743,00.html

Well, according to that site those were the only two helicopters in
service at that time... which seems unlikely. FWIW, I doubt that
anyone had information that precise on aircraft and helicopters in
service in Iraq at that point.

Scott

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 05:52:52 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:

Which, oddly enough, seems to have been quoted without attribution from
that same Mark Phythian guy who keeps selling books based on the idea
that the US and Britain armed Iraq (while ignoring everyone else, who
*really* sold them the weapons, and are still trying to collect on the
bills).

Pythian's book quotes those same sources, IIRC. And the book never
denies that the bulk of Saddam's weapons came from other countries: he
was addressing the widespread, comfortable belief in Britain and the
USA that neither of those countries had anything to do with it.

Scott

In article ,
Scott MacEachern wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 05:31:03 GMT, Chad Irby wrote:


...and according to this story, only two of them were still in service
as of January...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,74743,00.html

Well, according to that site those were the only two helicopters in
service at that time... which seems unlikely.

I dunno. Copters in the desert for 20 years? Very maintenance
intensive.

FWIW, I doubt that anyone had information that precise on aircraft
and helicopters in service in Iraq at that point.

Probably not, but it's a good general guess. They sure couldn't get
part for the US-made copters very easily.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.