Dizziness disorientation

wrote in
:

I'm not a guru, but I have experienced weathervaning when flying
"hands off & feet off" in a direction that was 60* or so against
the prevailing wind current.

Airplanes do not weathervane when they are off the ground in a steady
wind.

Bertie

Mistaking rudder out of trim, maybe, for "weather-vaning" while
embedded in a moving air mass?

I think of our 152s little trim tab. It's adjusted so that you
absolutely have no tendency of the plane to yaw straight and level.

I noticed flying the 172 the other day that it had a tendency to come
off course more.

Is this a rudder trim effect (plenty of aircraft have rudder trim
tabs)?

Probably he's noticing the drift while enroute and has the whole wind
thing assways in his head. This is pretty common amongst British pilots.
They get told about wind in books but are taught no ground reference
manuevers at all. They can probably regurgitate what they have been told
about wind, but I have found few of them who really understand it, let
alone manuever the airplane anything like instinctually in relation to
wind.
They get told a lot of really useful things that US pilots do not, BTW.
Largely about weather and nav, but aircraft handling is abyssmal.
A lot of old american airplanes have been imported there in recent
years. Luscombes, Champs, cubs, etc. and they are wrecked at a ferocious
rate, partly because of this deficiency in initial training, partly
because of the wild weather and their fondness fo rvery short fields,
and partly because most of them don't get to fly enough because of the
Wx and the horrific costs.
I completely believe the OP, a UK PL meant what he said. I would reckon
his instructor knows only marginally more than that about wind.

Adn don't even get me started on how they aproach stalls!


Bertie

On 18 Jan 2008 03:24:59 GMT, Judah wrote:

New Pilot wrote in news:n9tro39afurstkjapf0rtnc6ppl43not4v@
4ax.com:

Hi folks,

Does anyone have any experience of the following or know about it.

I recently got a ppl licence and generally are fine doing all the
flying type tasks required to safely take off fly and land.
One thing that seems to get me every time is if I am for example
flying straight and level at 2 or 3 thousand feet (height just as an
arbitory figure) and I encounter a crosswind the aircraft slowly but
surely starts to yaw as the wind hits the tail fin. this bit I
understand but the bit I don't is when this situation happens
I feel dizzy and disorientated for a few moments as the view from the
window in VFR starts to rotate.
I can reduce this by a bit of rudder to stop the rotation and keep the
ball in the centre.

Is this normal or should I not be flying?

thanks

I'm not a guru, but I have experienced weathervaning when flying "hands off
& feet off" in a direction that was 60* or so against the prevailing wind
current.

The point about the plane not maintaining coordination is probably about
right - certainly you are not "stepping on the ball" (or perhaps more
likely as a new pilot, stepping on it too much) and causing a skid or slip,
which is probably contributing to your disorientation.

Generally speaking, though, the weathervaning that I have experienced has
caused a turn that was not very quick, but more progressive and subtle. If
you are experiencing an aggressive turn, I have to believe you are not
controlling the rudder properly. Otherwise if you are getting dizzy from a
simple turn at altitude, I would agree with the others here that you should
visit your AME...

I can only remember getting dizzy while flying twice. Once when I did my
first recovery from unusual attitudes under the hood (I had a pretty
aggressive instructor - I think he was doing himmelmans while I was there
with my head pointed at the floor), and once when I had just recovered from
a cold and had a bit of trouble getting my ears to pop on a relatively
aggressive descent - apparently I wasn't as recovered as I thought I was,
and when my ears finally did pop, my whole head whooshed for a second.

You should not be experiencing dizziness on a regular basis during normal
straight-and-level flight nor even in a relatively aggressive turn. Do you
have trouble doing short approaches or steep turns?


The turning effect seems to happen over about 8 to 10 seconds to turn
the aircraft 15 degrees.
Once turned it seems to remain stable now pointing in a different
direction. I then see that the balance ball is a little off centre.
I did try turning the ruddder trim knob to the right and left but it
did not seem to have much if any effect.

Steep turns 45 degees or more to the right are fine,
Have some trouble with turns to the left usually kicks in after one
full circuit almost if the fluid in my ears is delayed in some way -
Thogh i fight the sensation and can do satisfactory steep turns to the
left.
maybe having just done a few 45degree turns to the right and then
pretty much banking to the left without stopping at the straight and
level for a rest may not help.

Loosing height quickly is no problem the ears do equalise to the
pressure change - gaining height quickly in a worn PA28 does not
really happen max = 750 feet/minute thats with just me fueled to tabs
and no baggage.

New Pilot wrote in
news
The turning effect seems to happen over about 8 to 10 seconds to turn
the aircraft 15 degrees.

Once turned it seems to remain stable now pointing in a different
direction. I then see that the balance ball is a little off centre.
I did try turning the ruddder trim knob to the right and left but it
did not seem to have much if any effect.

Sounds awfully slow and consistent to be weathervaning to me. As others
have said, weathervaning happens with wind gusts and you'd feel the plane
being "pushed" a few degrees left or right as it was happening.

More than likely it's a coordination issue. Either the rudder and/or
aileron trim is off, or you're letting your feet and fingers do things that
your head isn't paying attention to. You're the pilot, man. Control the
plane! Watch the ball!

Steep turns 45 degees or more to the right are fine,
Have some trouble with turns to the left usually kicks in after one
full circuit almost if the fluid in my ears is delayed in some way -
Thogh i fight the sensation and can do satisfactory steep turns to the
left.
maybe having just done a few 45degree turns to the right and then
pretty much banking to the left without stopping at the straight and
level for a rest may not help.

Have you tried starting with a left turn? I don't think it's completely
outrageous for you to have a momentary queasy sensation as you do the 90*
switch (from right 45 to left 45). It doesn't happen to me, but I can see
how it might be uncomfortable for some.

Loosing height quickly is no problem the ears do equalise to the
pressure change - gaining height quickly in a worn PA28 does not
really happen max = 750 feet/minute thats with just me fueled to tabs
and no baggage.

The concept of the short approach is that you're going to be doing an
aggressive descent in a 30* bank turn...

I'm guessing you may have some "queasiness" issues (my sister has them) and
may want to talk to your AME about it. I think your "weathervaning" issues
are really just letting yourself be the passenger instead of the pilot.

On 20 Jan 2008 20:44:55 GMT, Judah wrote:

New Pilot wrote in
news
The turning effect seems to happen over about 8 to 10 seconds to turn
the aircraft 15 degrees.

Once turned it seems to remain stable now pointing in a different
direction. I then see that the balance ball is a little off centre.
I did try turning the ruddder trim knob to the right and left but it
did not seem to have much if any effect.

Sounds awfully slow and consistent to be weathervaning to me. As others
have said, weathervaning happens with wind gusts and you'd feel the plane
being "pushed" a few degrees left or right as it was happening.

More than likely it's a coordination issue. Either the rudder and/or
aileron trim is off, or you're letting your feet and fingers do things that
your head isn't paying attention to. You're the pilot, man. Control the
plane! Watch the ball!

Steep turns 45 degees or more to the right are fine,
Have some trouble with turns to the left usually kicks in after one
full circuit almost if the fluid in my ears is delayed in some way -
Thogh i fight the sensation and can do satisfactory steep turns to the
left.
maybe having just done a few 45degree turns to the right and then
pretty much banking to the left without stopping at the straight and
level for a rest may not help.

Have you tried starting with a left turn? I don't think it's completely
outrageous for you to have a momentary queasy sensation as you do the 90*
switch (from right 45 to left 45). It doesn't happen to me, but I can see
how it might be uncomfortable for some.

Loosing height quickly is no problem the ears do equalise to the
pressure change - gaining height quickly in a worn PA28 does not
really happen max = 750 feet/minute thats with just me fueled to tabs
and no baggage.

The concept of the short approach is that you're going to be doing an
aggressive descent in a 30* bank turn...

I'm guessing you may have some "queasiness" issues (my sister has them) and
may want to talk to your AME about it. I think your "weathervaning" issues
are really just letting yourself be the passenger instead of the pilot.

Thanks for that, could well be just me being a passenger.
The nearest to the short approach sometimes is a base leg join where I
have to loose 800 feet in a short time and turning. but thats not
really agressive.

In response to another poster mentioning the UK weather and costs that
is absolutly right. weather here has been awful on the south coast and
the cost of flying
Hire for 1 hour of a PA28 wet is about $250 at loose approximation US
dollars
Landing fee at my local airport is now $35
Touch and go is $16 and they now charge $16 for a missed approach
-they waive that fee if ATC instruct a go around,

New Pilot wrote in
:

Thanks for that, could well be just me being a passenger.
The nearest to the short approach sometimes is a base leg join where I
have to loose 800 feet in a short time and turning. but thats not
really agressive.

In response to another poster mentioning the UK weather and costs that
is absolutly right. weather here has been awful on the south coast and
the cost of flying
Hire for 1 hour of a PA28 wet is about $250 at loose approximation US
dollars
Landing fee at my local airport is now $35
Touch and go is $16 and they now charge $16 for a missed approach
-they waive that fee if ATC instruct a go around,

Holy cow! That's out of control - charging for a missed approach?!?! Is
this a Class B airport or something? What is their justification? How much
wear & tear does your Archer cause the runway when it never even touches
it! Are they concerned about the downdrafts from the ground effect?

I think you should consider moving to the US. Life will be better.
Especially in another two or three years...

I don't think I ever paid more than $15 for a landing fee in an Archer (or
even in a Bonanza, for that matter). And I've only ever heard of one
airport in the US where the owner was trying to charge people for touch &
goes. And I don't think he does it anymore. But even he wasn't charging for
a go-around or missed approach...