Maintaining altitude

Is it better (in a small GA aircraft) to maintain altitude using minor changes
in pitch and trim alone, or using both pitch/trim and throttle adjustments?
I'm asking just about maintaining altitude once there, not climbing or
descending to an altitude.

On May 16, 4:59*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
Is it better (in a small GA aircraft) to maintain altitude using minor changes
in pitch and trim alone, or using both pitch/trim and throttle adjustments?
I'm asking just about maintaining altitude once there, not climbing or
descending to an altitude.

Define "better". Better yet hit pause.

Cheers

More flaps, don't you realize your e name is giving him the real
insider clue -- that flap extension and retraction is the superior
way?


On May 16, 6:27 am, More_Flaps wrote:
On May 16, 4:59 pm, Mxsmanic wrote:

Is it better (in a small GA aircraft) to maintain altitude using minor changes
in pitch and trim alone, or using both pitch/trim and throttle adjustments?
I'm asking just about maintaining altitude once there, not climbing or
descending to an altitude.

Define "better". Better yet hit pause.

Cheers

On May 16, 10:35*pm, Tina wrote:
More flaps, don't you realize your e name is giving him the real
insider clue -- that flap extension and retraction is the superior
way?


Yep, second only to adjusting the landing gear and dumping ballast.
But tell me T, what are you in?

Cheers

Mxsmanic wrote:
Is it better (in a small GA aircraft) to maintain altitude using minor changes
in pitch and trim alone, or using both pitch/trim and throttle adjustments?
I'm asking just about maintaining altitude once there, not climbing or
descending to an altitude.

Generally speaking, you will establish level flight with pitch, adjust
the power, and trim the airplane. At this point level flight is
maintained by extremely subtle and ever constant "caressing" in pitch.

--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques writes:

Generally speaking, you will establish level flight with pitch, adjust
the power, and trim the airplane. At this point level flight is
maintained by extremely subtle and ever constant "caressing" in pitch.

How sensitive is the trim? I find myself wondering this as I adjust trim in
the sim. The sim seems a bit coarse, although I'm doing much better at
holding altitude in the C182 (which has no altitude hold for the autopilot)
than I was doing a week or two ago.

When I leave the runway, the aircraft (C182 or C172) seems to climb very
briskly with take-off trim set. After climbing a few hundred feet I find that
I must hold the stick forward and trim nose down significantly in order to get
the aircraft to level off a bit. This is with full throttle (and pitch all
the way forward, in the C182). I'm not sure if I should just continue
trimming to level flight with the throttle set forward, or back off on the
throttle substantially to maintain altitude. I also don't know if this brisk
climb behavior (with full tanks but just me and equal-weight ballast in the
right seat) is typical of the actual aircraft (I have had mixed replies to my
various inquiries).

Mxsmanic wrote:
Dudley Henriques writes:

Generally speaking, you will establish level flight with pitch, adjust
the power, and trim the airplane. At this point level flight is
maintained by extremely subtle and ever constant "caressing" in pitch.

How sensitive is the trim? I find myself wondering this as I adjust trim in
the sim. The sim seems a bit coarse, although I'm doing much better at
holding altitude in the C182 (which has no altitude hold for the autopilot)
than I was doing a week or two ago.

When I leave the runway, the aircraft (C182 or C172) seems to climb very
briskly with take-off trim set. After climbing a few hundred feet I find that
I must hold the stick forward and trim nose down significantly in order to get
the aircraft to level off a bit. This is with full throttle (and pitch all
the way forward, in the C182). I'm not sure if I should just continue
trimming to level flight with the throttle set forward, or back off on the
throttle substantially to maintain altitude. I also don't know if this brisk
climb behavior (with full tanks but just me and equal-weight ballast in the
right seat) is typical of the actual aircraft (I have had mixed replies to my
various inquiries).

The trim setup in MSFS is sensitive as you have noted. Basically you can
compensate as you would in the actual airplane. If you note the trim
causing a bit of over rotation in pitch on takeoff, ease back a bit on
the takeoff trim setting.
In real airplanes, trim sensitivity can vary slightly from plane to
plane even in type. I've found that starting with the recommended
takeoff trim setting works initially. Then if I'm flying the same
airplane again, I'll "adjust" that setting a bit as the aircraft has
told me it needs through it's prior performance.

The sim in my opinion is very hard to trim out properly depending on the
stick sensitivity and how you have the wind set up.
Basically it's not written in stone, and of course you don't have
control pressure present on a joystick as you would in the real airplane
(even with force feedback which in my opinion is not accurate anyway) so
just remember to set up basically by leveling off, watching the nose
attitude carefully, HOLD a level flight nose attitude visually with the
yoke, and trim off until you get a stable altimeter hands off the
controller.

--
Dudley Henriques

On May 17, 3:45*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Dudley Henriques writes:
Generally speaking, you will establish level flight with pitch, adjust
the power, and trim the airplane. At this point level flight is
maintained by extremely subtle and ever constant "caressing" in pitch.

How sensitive is the trim? *I find myself wondering this as I adjust trim in
the sim. *The sim seems a bit coarse, although I'm doing much better at
holding altitude in the C182 (which has no altitude hold for the autopilot)
than I was doing a week or two ago.

When I leave the runway, the aircraft (C182 or C172) seems to climb very
briskly with take-off trim set. *After climbing a few hundred feet I find that
I must hold the stick forward and trim nose down significantly in order to get
the aircraft to level off a bit. *This is with full throttle (and pitch all
the way forward, in the C182). *I'm not sure if I should just continue
trimming to level flight with the throttle set forward, or back off on the
throttle substantially to maintain altitude. *I also don't know if this brisk
climb behavior (with full tanks but just me and equal-weight ballast in the
right seat) is typical of the actual aircraft (I have had mixed replies to my
various inquiries).

I know you are supposed to use the stick to adjust to the correct
altitude and then trim but I must admit to cheating a bit and just
playing with the trim only until I get the altitude nailed. And I am
very curious about what you use for ballast in the right seat Mx? Are
you using one of those "Skyguy" co-pilot dummies with the uniform
that you get from the pilot shop? I used to have one myself but it
was a pain carrying it around , so now I just use an 80 kg block of
lead, since it was the densest object I could find. Do you know of
anything denser so it wont take up as much room in my flight bag?
Thanks
Terry
PPL Downunder

terry writes:

I know you are supposed to use the stick to adjust to the correct
altitude and then trim but I must admit to cheating a bit and just
playing with the trim only until I get the altitude nailed.

With the stick I have on the sim, I usually use the stick first to get close
to the right altitude, and then gradually adjust the trim. There is no
changing control pressure in the sim, so I adjust the trim, back off on the
stick a little bit, and watch the result. Little by little I can get it
trimmed out, but I suspect the process is a lot slower than it would be if I
had proportional pressure on the stick that I could directly trim off. I
suspect the real aircraft is easier to fly, at least in this respect.

And I am very curious about what you use for ballast in the right seat Mx? Are
you using one of those "Skyguy" co-pilot dummies with the uniform
that you get from the pilot shop? I used to have one myself but it
was a pain carrying it around , so now I just use an 80 kg block of
lead, since it was the densest object I could find. Do you know of
anything denser so it wont take up as much room in my flight bag?

Depleted uranium is almost twice as heavy as lead. Osmium is about 20%
heavier than DU, but it smells bad (and the smell is toxic).

I've considered this issue, and decided that my ballast is jugs of tap water,
because I can empty or fill jugs as required to adjust the ballast, and I can
move individual jugs about the cabin as required. I put ballast on the
opposite side of the cabin and behind me, in most cases, to center the CG and
move it back a little (when I'm flying alone).

On May 18, 11:09*pm, Mxsmanic wrote:
terry writes:
I *know you are supposed to use the stick to adjust to the correct
altitude and then trim but I must admit to cheating a bit and just
playing with the trim only until I get the altitude nailed.

With the stick I have on the sim, I usually use the stick first to get close
to the right altitude, and then gradually adjust the trim. *There is no
changing control pressure in the sim, so I adjust the trim, back off on the
stick a little bit, and watch the result. *Little by little I can get it
trimmed out, but I suspect the process is a lot slower than it would be if I
had proportional pressure on the stick that I could directly trim off. *I
suspect the real aircraft is easier to fly, at least in this respect.

And I am very curious about what you use for ballast in the right seat Mx? *Are
you using one of those *"Skyguy" *co-pilot dummies with the uniform
that you get from the pilot shop? * *I used to have one myself but it
was a pain carrying it around , so now I just use an 80 kg block of
lead, since it was the densest object I could find. *Do you know *of
anything denser so it wont take up as much room in my flight bag?

Depleted uranium is almost twice as heavy as lead. *Osmium is about 20%
heavier than DU, but it smells bad (and the smell is toxic).

I've considered this issue, and decided that my ballast is jugs of tap water,
because I can empty or fill jugs as required to adjust the ballast, and I can
move individual jugs about the cabin as required. *I put ballast on the
opposite side of the cabin and behind me, in most cases, to center the CG and
move it back a little (when I'm flying alone).

Good idea, you have got me thinking now, I could just use balloons,
which will weigh nothing and fit easily into my flight bag, then I can
fill them with water when I get to the airport. I'll check with the
flight school if its OK, they were not real happy about the lead block
anyway, they reckon it was wrecking the springs in the right seat.
Thanks
Terry