Pitch vs. trim in flight phases

gatt writes:

I don't know how that compares to the Saitek Aviator which is what I
use, but I'm thinking of removing the springs and replacing them with
stiffer ones to make it a bit more realistic.

I'm sure there's some lack of realism, but I don't fly to feel control
pressures. I don't take an interest in the visceral sensations of flying.

I'm sure that the same pilots who enjoy flying in an open-cockpit biplane
built of cloth-covered wood probably wouldn't enjoy a desktop sim, because
they like physical sensations. However, pilots (and others) who like the
considerable intellectual exercise of flying and navigation might not care
about the physical effects, and indeed, for some (important) types of flying,
those physical sensations are not important.

If someone thinks that physical sensations are essential, I suggest he put on
a blindfold and see how long he can remain in straight and level flight with
those sensations alone.

Mxsmanic wrote in
:

gatt writes:

I don't know how that compares to the Saitek Aviator which is what I
use, but I'm thinking of removing the springs and replacing them with
stiffer ones to make it a bit more realistic.

I'm sure there's some lack of realism, but I don't fly to feel control
pressures. I don't take an interest in the visceral sensations of
flying.


Trimming an airplane by feeling the control pressure is an essential part
of being a pilot. Since you take no interest in it, you're just jerking
yourself off while playing a game.

I'm sure that the same pilots who enjoy flying in an open-cockpit
biplane built of cloth-covered wood probably wouldn't enjoy a desktop
sim, because they like physical sensations. However, pilots (and
others) who like the considerable intellectual exercise of flying and
navigation might not care about the physical effects, and indeed, for
some (important) types of flying, those physical sensations are not
important.

Pilots certainly do care about the physical effects. You've just
fantasized an scenario where they don't so you can delude yourself into
believing that jerking yourself off while playing a game is flying.
If someone thinks that physical sensations are essential, I suggest he
put on a blindfold and see how long he can remain in straight and
level flight with those sensations alone.

No pilot has ever claimed you use physical sensations alone to fly. Only
in the twisted fecal matter which passes for your brain does that myth
exist.

Anthony, you become a bigger moron with every breath you take. You
constantly prove that you don't know **** from shinola.

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
gatt writes:

I don't know how that compares to the Saitek Aviator which is what I
use, but I'm thinking of removing the springs and replacing them with
stiffer ones to make it a bit more realistic.

I'm sure there's some lack of realism, but I don't fly to feel control
pressures. I don't take an interest in the visceral sensations of flying.

And once again you've totally missed the point.

Nobody flies to feel control pressure or gets their jollies from its
presence.

Control pressure enables the pilot to more precisely control the aircraft.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Scott Skylane wrote:
gatt wrote:
/snip/ Electronic trim switches mounted to the yoke are a
bad habit waiting to happen; they're disabled in a lot of training
aircraft. /snip

Gatt, you owe me a new keyboard, I just spewed my coffee all over mine!
The plethora of inop electric trim swithces in GA is due to them being
broken, and the ownerws too cheap to have them fixed.

That too!

Our chief CFI "INOPed" the autopilot but occasionally turns it on while
taxiing to make sure the CFI candidates are paying attention to the
checklist. It actually works just fine. He just marked it INOP to keep
people from using it.



-c

writes:

Control pressure enables the pilot to more precisely control the aircraft.

How do pilots fly aircraft that lack control pressure, or aircraft that only
simulate it?

In rec.aviation.piloting Mxsmanic wrote:
writes:

Control pressure enables the pilot to more precisely control the aircraft.

How do pilots fly aircraft that lack control pressure, or aircraft that only
simulate it?

On aircraft that simulate it, the simulation is realistic.

In the early days of fly by wire airplanes without any control feedback,
the airplane tended to wander about the sky the way simmers do.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

"Mxsmanic" wrote

That's the difference, and it is a big difference.

No, it's not.

I have experience with both and to me (and probably every other pilot on
this ng) it is a big difference.

You're exaggerating a difference that is insignificant.

I don't think you have the background to comment on this and have it
actually carry any weight. A spring-based yoke on a PC sim feels nothing
like the real thing, not even close.

They don't feel the same from one airplane to the next, either. So what?

Various aircraft are more similar to each other in the way that yoke vs trim
forces feel than the spring-based yoke is to any actual airplane. The
spring-based yoke feels like a child's toy, nothing more, nothing less. I
have one and I know what it feels like to use it with a PC based sim.

In addition, trim in the PC sim changes where the elevator is positioned for
a given yoke location (in software). This is fundamentally different from
what it does and how it functions in an actual aircraft.

Before I drove a car, I trained on a simulator that had no motion. When I
switched to the real thing, I didn't notice any significant difference,
except
that the car actually moved.

That is not relevant to the topic.

BDS

I've lost track. Now I just fly the trim.

Mxsmanic wrote:
In a small GA aircraft, in which phases of flight will you normally use mostly
trim to adjust pitch, and in which phases will you normally mostly use the
yoke?

Nomen Nescio wrote in
:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

From: Mxsmanic

If you don't have to ask someone how to trim a real plane, then it
follows that no training is required to do so

Does anyone here really need further proof that MX is functionally
retarded?


That's an extremely charitable overassessment of MX's mental capabilities.

BDS writes:

I have experience with both and to me (and probably every other pilot on
this ng) it is a big difference.

But your experience is limited, just like mine, and the fact that it includes
time in a real plane isn't necessarily significant.

I find that most pilots here have an amazingly narrow view of flying that does
not extend beyond whatever experience they have personally with real aircraft.
There's a lot more to aviation than Cessnas or Pipers. They complain that I
overestimate the competence I can acquire from using a simulator, but at the
very same time they seem to believe they know everything about flying even
though they've only flown a handful of tiny little planes for a total of a few
hundred hours at most.

I don't think you have the background to comment on this and have it
actually carry any weight. A spring-based yoke on a PC sim feels nothing
like the real thing, not even close.

I've been in real aircraft--at least in airliners--and the importance of
sensation is _wildly_ exaggerated, if what I felt was representative (and I
felt exactly the same thing that the pilots did). Sensations are surely
stronger in tiny GA aircraft, but you can't fly aircraft on sensations alone,
and in many aircraft sensations just aren't important.

Various aircraft are more similar to each other in the way that yoke vs trim
forces feel than the spring-based yoke is to any actual airplane.

Except that there are actual airplanes that use spring-based feedback. In
fly-by-wire aircraft, the control pressure (if any) is completely simulated.
If simulation is so bad, why is it being used in actual aircraft?

The answer is that these sensations are, at best, mere conveniences. They are
not reliable. They are simulated for pilot comfort where they do not
naturally exist. They cannot be depended upon for flying. To fly safely you
need to be able to see things, either the world outside, or instruments, or
both. At _best_, sensation tells you that something has changed, but if you
are keeping your eyes where they belong, you don't need to be told that
something has changed by physical sensations.

The spring-based yoke feels like a child's toy, nothing more, nothing less.

Some might well say that small aircraft feel like children's toys. It's just
a matter of viewpoint.

In addition, trim in the PC sim changes where the elevator is positioned for
a given yoke location (in software). This is fundamentally different from
what it does and how it functions in an actual aircraft.

So?

That is not relevant to the topic.

Yes, it is. It illustrates how unimportant some things are. You cannot drive
a car based on physical sensations, and you certainly cannot fly based on
them. They might feel nice (or not nice), and they might attract your
attention to the driving/flying task (if you've been careless enough to let
your attention wander), but they are not important, and that's one reason why
desktop simulators work as well as they do.

Things like sensation and control feedback can be adapted to in seconds, not
hours or days or weeks. And they aren't very useful.