On pre-flight inspections

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 07:05:39 -0700 (PDT), D Ramapriya wrote:

On Jul 27, 4:47*pm, "vaughn"
wrote:

One day I had pulled a glider out to the flight line and completed my
pre-flight, only to find that the tow pilot was taking a bathroom break.
Just to kill time, I wandered over to the tow plane and gave it a casual
once-over. *To my shock, I discovered that one of the struts on the
horizontal stabilizer was broken loose from its fuselage attachment. *That
plane's next flight might have been its last!

This one made my day, Vaughan (or is it spelt Vaugn?)

Troll fake modesty. You can clearly see his name above.

Franklin

D Ramapriya schreef:
Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.

-) two springs missing that should have held exhaust pipes together.
instructor judged we could fly, though
-) fatigue cracks in a bracket that hold the oil cooler.
instructor judged we could fly, though
-) oil cooler still partially covered for the winter cold on a sunny day
in May. instructor judged we could fly, though

So no, I never was significantly delayed in my 40 or so hours of
tuition, but problems do show up.
KA

jan olieslagers wrote:

-) two springs missing that should have held exhaust pipes together.
instructor judged we could fly, though
-) fatigue cracks in a bracket that hold the oil cooler.
instructor judged we could fly, though
-) oil cooler still partially covered for the winter cold on a sunny day
in May. instructor judged we could fly, though

So no, I never was significantly delayed in my 40 or so hours of
tuition, but problems do show up.
KA

The press-on instructor approach you mentioned reminded me of student
touch and goes long ago.
After landing, I tried to switch the flaps to up - but they wouldn't
move. I was about to pull the throttle - but the CHIEF instructor said,
let's press on. He tried the fuse - no go - and up we went - at about
150 FPM....

Brian W

A few examples of what I've seen so far:


-) two springs missing that should have held exhaust pipes together.
instructor judged we could fly, though
-) fatigue cracks in a bracket that hold the oil cooler.
instructor judged we could fly, though
-) oil cooler still partially covered for the winter cold on a sunny
day
in May. instructor judged we could fly, though



Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while
fueling
the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would make back
home,
about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay behind. At about
200' on
take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a complete loop impacting the
ground
at about a 60 degree angle. Nothing left of the aircraft more than
knee
high. Engine buried about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with
all
broken bones, struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.



For a friend here.... he passed on 3 spinner cracks on a rental 172.

One crack was 1 1/2 in long.

They (others) continued to fly the aircraft for another week before
the spinner was removed.


All of these point out the old adage that incompetence is unaware
of itself. In the first cases, the instructor "judged we could fly."
Was the instructor a mechanic, too, or maybe en engineer, to make the
determination that broken or missing parts didn't affect the safety of
the aircraft? Designers and manufacturers don't typically spend money
on stuff that isn't necessary, and as far as cracks go, they don't
usually progress in a linear fashion. They can show up, travel slowly,
then the part can fail all at once as the metal ahead of the crack
reaches its fatigue point from the work-hardening that results when a
crack allows too much flexing. A cracked spinner can kill, and has
done so in the past. They've been known to come through the
windshield. Frayed cables might be ok for a while or might not, as the
instance given clearly demonstrates. Would the pilot of that airplane
have suspended himself thousands of feet above the earth using a
frayed cable? Probably not, be he did what amounted to the same thing.

If we're going to just say "it'll be OK," why bother with the
preflight in the first place?

There are the Five Hazardous Attitudes: Anti-Authority, Resignation,
Invulnerability, Macho, and Impulsivity. Under which one does the
"it'll be OK" fit? And if the law requires that the airplane be
airworthy before flight but we fly it with obvious defects anyway,
where does that fit?


See this:

http://www.pilotoutlook.com/instrume..._and_antidotes

I'll get flamed, for sure, but then you guys can place the flamer
somewhere in the Hazardous Attitude scale.


Dan

wrote in message
...
A few examples of what I've seen so far:
-----------examples snipped for brevity----------

All of these point out the old adage that incompetence is unaware
of itself. In the first cases, the instructor "judged we could fly."
Was the instructor a mechanic, too, or maybe en engineer, to make the
determination that broken or missing parts didn't affect the safety of
the aircraft? Designers and manufacturers don't typically spend money
on stuff that isn't necessary, and as far as cracks go, they don't
usually progress in a linear fashion. They can show up, travel slowly,
then the part can fail all at once as the metal ahead of the crack
reaches its fatigue point from the work-hardening that results when a
crack allows too much flexing. A cracked spinner can kill, and has
done so in the past. They've been known to come through the
windshield. Frayed cables might be ok for a while or might not, as the
instance given clearly demonstrates. Would the pilot of that airplane
have suspended himself thousands of feet above the earth using a
frayed cable? Probably not, be he did what amounted to the same thing.

-----------more snipped----------
Dan

Back when there was a coffee shop, that had become a major hang-out for both
pilots and mechanics at my local airport, I once deferred a question to a
flight instructor who I knew to also be a certified A&E. The questioned was
a student pilot and I knew the correct answer; but really thought that it
should come from someone properly certified--and was utterly astounded by
the avalanche of poppycock that issued forth. I was so doumfounded that I
still can not recall the original question--half a dozen years later.

So, while I completely agree with your basic premise, I must also suggest
that any trust the general knowledge and good sense of a mechanic or
engineer should be evaluated as part of the decision whether to accept his
opinion or the products of his work!

I do know several mechanics who are darned good engineers, even though the
don't have engineering degrees, and also a couple of automotive mechanics
whose opinions I would gladly trust with regard to aircraft; but they are
not all created equal.

Peter

"D Ramapriya" wrote in message
...
Has any of you has ever discovered something during the pre-flight
inspection that necessitated a significant deferrment of your flight
plan or a cancelation altogether? Just curious, that's all.


To me personally --

Low oil many times.

Birds nests in the engine compartment at least twice.

Nav lights out at least twice.

Panel lights out at least once.

Loose fuel cap on a high wing once.

Unacceptable propeller damage on a metal prop once.

Most outstanding, years ago during flight training, was all bolts on an
outboard flap hinge were backed off about half way. I though the instructor
was just setting me up until I saw his response.

Worst I have actually witnessed --

Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while fueling
the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would make back home,
about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay behind. At about 200' on
take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a complete loop impacting the ground
at about a 60 degree angle. Nothing left of the aircraft more than knee
high. Engine buried about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with all
broken bones, struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.


There was another story in flying magazine many years ago about someone
hired to return a repossessed aircraft from a near by airport. Very cold
morning, he just check the oil and sumps. Clearing the end of the runway at
about 200 ', he reached for the carb heat. Cabin filled once dormant wasps
warmed by the carb heat! Fortunately he had enough presence of mind to
quickly open both windows and flooding the cabin with extremely cold air.
Made it back to the runway without further incident, but it obviously could
have ended much differently.

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:30:57 -0500, Maxwell wrote:

Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while fueling
the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would make back home,
about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay behind. At about 200' on
take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a complete loop impacting the ground
at about a 60 degree angle. Nothing left of the aircraft more than knee
high. Engine buried about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with all
broken bones, struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.

The guilt you should feel for not stopping both of them. What a cad you
are.

Franklin

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:14:03 -0400, Franklin "Franklin
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:30:57 -0500, Maxwell wrote:

Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while fueling
the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would make back home,
about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay behind. At about 200' on
take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a complete loop impacting the ground
at about a 60 degree angle. Nothing left of the aircraft more than knee
high. Engine buried about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with all
broken bones, struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.

The guilt you should feel for not stopping both of them. What a cad you
are.

Franklin

franklin you should be ashamed of yourself.
you have no details of the incident other than what maxwell posted so
you are not in a position to judge him.
you have no idea what condition the cable actually was.
if the aircraft was refuelling it made the last flight ok and there is
nothing to say that the pilot may have been correct.

in this world you are free to make your own choices ...and wear the
consequences.
when was the last time you flew an aircraft?

tragic as it was maxwell isnt to blame.

Stealth pilot

On Tue, 28 Jul 2009 08:50:11 GMT, Stealth Pilot wrote:

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 18:14:03 -0400, Franklin "Franklin
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Jul 2009 14:30:57 -0500, Maxwell wrote:

Badly frayed cable on the horizontal stabilizer. AI caught it while fueling
the aircraft. Showed it to the pilot who decided it would make back home,
about 30 miles. AI actually begged his pax to stay behind. At about 200' on
take off the cable failed. Aircraft did a complete loop impacting the ground
at about a 60 degree angle. Nothing left of the aircraft more than knee
high. Engine buried about 2'. Pilot died instantly, but the pax with all
broken bones, struggled for help for almost 5 minutes before expiring.

The guilt you should feel for not stopping both of them. What a cad you
are.

Franklin

franklin you should be ashamed of yourself.
you have no details of the incident other than what maxwell posted so
you are not in a position to judge him.
you have no idea what condition the cable actually was.
if the aircraft was refuelling it made the last flight ok and there is
nothing to say that the pilot may have been correct.

in this world you are free to make your own choices ...and wear the
consequences.
when was the last time you flew an aircraft?

tragic as it was maxwell isnt to blame.

Stealth pilot

Stealth pilot,

Maxwell's self-admitted failures are easy to read. See, he is not
complaining about my pointing out his failures.

Why do you?

Franklin

"Franklin " "Franklin wrote in message
...

Stealth pilot,

Maxwell's self-admitted failures are easy to read. See, he is not
complaining about my pointing out his failures.

Why do you?

Franklin

No, I didn't feel the need to comment because you're obviously a dumb ass.