Armed forces of an independent Scotland

Robert Peffers wrote:

[ big snip ] We must look to a European
military force if there is to be any hope of standing against the big
threats that will confront us in future. One of these threats is the Eastern
Bloc but another is the might of the USA who, make no mistake about it,
continue to attempt to dominate the World. Setting themselves against the UN
is a fair sign of where they are going.

The US isn't "setting themselves against the UN" - we've simply
stopped pretending that a Third World debating society has any
relevance at all to world affairs.

In message , phil hunt
writes
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:49:16 +0100, Paul J. Adam
wrote:
No. How many of the design teams for Eurofighter, Harrier, Tornado,
Jaguar et al are based there?

I suspect the desgn teams for the last 3 are long since disbanded.

Not even slightly - the Harrier's just been upped to GR9/9a status, the
Tornado to GR.4 (and is scheduled to remain in service towards 2020) and
Jaguar, for complicated reasons, remains popular because it's easily
modified.

Yes, there are. Unfortunately, if you think you can support your torpedo
outloads through them, they're dependent on support from BAE SYSTEMS
Waterlooville, which is about as far from Scotland as you can get and
still be part of the British mainland. (Do those depots make their own
spare parts? No, they don't, they depend on the manufacturer)

Who would be happy to sell to Scotland.

Provided an export licence was forthcoming, sufficient profit was to be
made, and it didn't threaten other activities..

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

In message , phil hunt
writes
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 12:46:46 +0100, Paul J. Adam
wrote:
Need tactics? The Maritime Warfare Centre is in Portsdown, on the south
coast. Want to maintain the nuclear warheads? Aldermaston wasn't in
Scotland last time I looked. How about the torpedoes for self-defence?
Also southern UK. Countermeasures? Ultra Electronics, also based south
of the border.

I'm sure these establishments would be happy to sell their services
for a fee.

Oh, really? Trading in classified material is a serious criminal offence


Would an independent Scotland be a NATO member? What would it offer, to
justify membership of the 'Four Eyes Forum' (the 'Australia, Canada, UK,
US Eyes Only' network)

Easy in theory, harder in practice. Trouble is, when folk start ranting
that it's simple and easy and they'll throw a few megatons at anyone who
doesn't dance to their tune, it leaves a very poor impression.


If not -- lots of other places make torpedos etc.

Of course: but you're starting from scratch. New spares pipeline, new
handling equipment, redesigning the submarine fire control equipment,
new tactics, retraining just about everyone involved... it can be done
but it's not a quick, cheap or simple substitution.

Also, 'lots' is something of an exaggeration. There's the US, France,
Sweden and Italy: maybe Russia if you trust their after-sales service
(and are willing to risk one of your SSBNs imitating the Kursk).

After that, you're into relying on China or North Korea or similar -
good prices, but not much performance.

Spare parts come from Warton, which is - guess where? Armaments are BAE
and MBDA, which again aren't Scotland-based.

Though they do have establishments in Scotland (BAE does, I'm not
sure about MBDA). In any case, arms manufacturers are hardly likely
to refuse to sell arms.

Depends how much pressure is applied. Remember, this is apparently being
conducted with a belligerent Scotland threatening nuclear death to
anyone who opposes it.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

In article , "Paul J. Adam"
writes:

In message , Robert Peffers
writes
Frae Auld bob Peffers:
Well Denmark does very well as they are. Anyway Scotland would be entitled
to her share of the UK armed forces,

Sure, but it means you get to pay for them (and most of the support and
TacDev is way down south,

Och I'm sure it won't be as bad as the constant Defence Reviews and
reorganisations we have in the UK at the behest of the Treasury. We'll just
give the contract to some Sandline type company - which is probably what the
UK will end up doing anyway.

meaning you need to pay again to duplicate it
if it's a hostile split). Balkanisation isn't usually a good idea (I
mean, _look_ at the Balkans - would _you_ want to live there?)

This isn't the Balkans. More sedate like the "splits" with Canada et al. The
idea of a British Isles Balkans is just the fantasy hyperbole passing for
unionist political propaganda. Most countries go their separate ways quite
amicably. It's just that their stories don't make good movies.

(or if not we could hang on to ALL the
nukes as hostages). If they don't give us our proper share the Indians,
Pakistanis, Israelis or even the Palestinians may pay well for them. Even
the Koreas have nuclear ambitions.

Careful there - the US might remember the Auld Alliance and decide that
Scotland is close enough to France to become part of the Axis of Evil.
Trying to auction nuclear warheads might get some unwelcome gatecrashers
(besides, most of the customers are short on manners, and might decide
that it was easier to kill other bidders than match their price, then
the auctioneer gets hit in the crossfire, and where's your profit then?)

Be a tad dangerous hitting us in the crossfire when we still have the
capability of delivering the goods for free.

In article , Peter Kemp
writes:

On Thu, 8 Jul 2004 23:07:21 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

There's recently been speculation in the media that UK defence cuts
ewill result in some or all of Scotland's infantry regiments being
disbanded[1]. If Scotland became an independent state, what
sort of armed forces should it have -- if you were appointed
Scottish minister of defence, what would you do?

4-6 fisheries protection vessels, alsae guid for keeping the damn
English away fra the wee oil platferms.

one of them Brewery ships sounds like a guid idee an all, fer keeping
the troops mora...morae.....spirits oop.
Now, are we goona join that Nato thingie or not?

If we are, then a coople of battalians of infantree shood werk well
fer yon peeckeepin roll, and we can gaw down and smack the damn
Sassenachs occasionaly an all.

A few MPAs (again 4-6) for long range patrol, plus C2 of any SAR work,
plus a dozen Merlins for both land and naval work (SAR, troop
transposrt, resupply).

If Bonnie auld Scotland did ever split, I see them (if you haven't
guessed I'm not a native Scottish speaker) more as an Ireland (minimal
forces except for peacekeping and EEZ patrol), than a Sweden
(extremely large and competant forces for the size of economy and
population).

Hell, why not an Israel? Bigger population and no occupation
commitments...unless you include parts of Lanarkshire and the Glesga Strip.

In article ,
(phil hunt) writes:

There's recently been speculation in the media that UK defence cuts
ewill result in some or all of Scotland's infantry regiments being
disbanded[1]. If Scotland became an independent state, what
sort of armed forces should it have -- if you were appointed
Scottish minister of defence, what would you do?

The same as Iceland and thus save billions to build myself a Presidential
Palace.

"phil hunt" wrote in message
rg...

Trying to auction nuclear warheads might get some unwelcome gatecrashers

The USA paid Ukraine to get rid of theirs, as I recall.

Now there's an excellent argument for independence. Go independent and get
billions from the US. Wonderful fillip to the economy. Keep it up.

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:30:49 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:

On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 18:23:35 -0400, Peter Kemp wrote:

4-6 fisheries protection vessels, alsae guid for keeping the damn
English away fra the wee oil platferms.

Makes sense.

A few MPAs (again 4-6) for long range patrol, plus C2 of any SAR work,
plus a dozen Merlins for both land and naval work (SAR, troop
transposrt, resupply).

What're MPAs?

Maritime Patrol Aircraft (e.g. Nimrods in RAF service)

If Bonnie auld Scotland did ever split, I see them (if you haven't
guessed I'm not a native Scottish speaker) more as an Ireland (minimal
forces except for peacekeping and EEZ patrol), than a Sweden
(extremely large and competant forces for the size of economy and
population).

That's probably what would happen.

Though bear in mind Sweden spends a lower proportion of GDP on
defense than the UK does. The MoD doesn't seem to be into value for
money. Why do they employ more civil servants than soldiers?

Because it's cehaper to have a civvy doing things like procurement and
support than a military bod who is wasted behind a desk (as long as
you have enough military types around making sure we deliver what they
need). Trust me, my equivalent military bod earns a hell of a lot more
than I do.

Peter Kemp

On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 17:34:39 +0100, "Jackie Mulheron"
wrote:

In article , Peter Kemp
writes:
If Bonnie auld Scotland did ever split, I see them (if you haven't
guessed I'm not a native Scottish speaker) more as an Ireland (minimal
forces except for peacekeping and EEZ patrol), than a Sweden
(extremely large and competant forces for the size of economy and
population).

Hell, why not an Israel? Bigger population and no occupation
commitments...unless you include parts of Lanarkshire and the Glesga Strip.

Small problem - to be an Israel you need to be beating the crap out of
the indiginous population (any Picts left?) and of couse get Billions
from the US to subsidise it all. I don't see the Scottish lobby having
a lot of power in Congress at the moment.

Peter Kemp

In message , Peter Kemp
writes
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:30:49 +0100, (phil hunt)
wrote:
The MoD doesn't seem to be into value for
money. Why do they employ more civil servants than soldiers?

Because it's cehaper to have a civvy doing things like procurement and
support than a military bod who is wasted behind a desk (as long as
you have enough military types around making sure we deliver what they
need). Trust me, my equivalent military bod earns a hell of a lot more
than I do.

Ditto. My "military equivalent" ranks make twice what I do, but I'm
current to searide and tabbed to deploy and most of them aren't. So
they're safe at home while I can be grabbed and dropped into a warzone
to *directly* support operations if needed. Oh, wait one... who's the
better deal?

I could complain, but then if I *do* end up in Basra I get various extra
allowances which my Navy oppos don't. (On the other hand even with the
allowances I'm *still* earning less in Basra than them Navy equivalents
in cushty billets back home...)

But I like the work, which is why I'm there rather than in the private
sector.


Also, at least where I sit, many of those 'civil servants' are
themselves ex-Navy who are contributing irreplaceable expertise for much
lower cost than keeping them in uniform. I'm not familiar with the
hinterlands of UK MoD, which is where I presume the huge 'waste, fraud
and abuse' must be - because the only reason the Forces are doing so
much with so little now is that they've contracted out so many 'non-core
tasks' to civilian staff who cost less and get less leave than Service
folk.

(Not knocking the Forces, either: they're the ones *fighting* when push
becomes shove, while we're just asked to get up with them to help,
advise and guide - and try not to get hurt while they do so.)



--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk