French planes are crap

In message , Alan Minyard
writes
On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 07:47:14 -0000, "killfile" wrote:
The clearest thing is that nothing is superior to the *price* of the F-22
... I'll certainly bet the six Rafales or Eurofighters you could get the
price of one F-22 against that lone F-22 in combat.

The F-22 would kill all of them before they knew it was there.

The Germans said that about the Me.262... unfortunately, being badly
outnumbered tends to end up with heavy casualties because the enemy
aircraft aren't just met in ideal engagements. Sometimes you meet enemy
aircraft when they drop penetrating bombs through hardened shelters and
runway intersections, or in the same raid when your 'stealthy' aircraft
is dirtied up with flaps and undercarriage down on approach or
departure.

Trouble is, you need to generate enough sorties to protect your own base
and _then_ generate offensive capability... which means you need
numbers, and the rising cost and falling procurement of the Raptor means
it'll be seriously stretched.

Odds are that none of its enemies will have the means or ability to
seriously challenge it, but then you could say the same about an
upgraded F-15 (which threat nation can seriously challenge the Eagle now
or in the credible future?) for a _lot_ less money.


--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

In message , Chad Irby
writes
In article ,
"killfile" wrote:
How is one F/A-22 going to kill six Rafales?
By calling on his two wingmen, of course.

Unless the Rafales are selling for less than $30 million each, of course.

Are these in French service or exported? Very different accounting
systems used (one of the reasons people joke about "Shock Horror News
From France - GIAT Makes Profit!")

Parts, support, and training included.

Hey, how much do you get for the cost of a F-22? Not much in terms of
maintenance, crew training, or flying hours... you get the aircraft and
the rest is all extra, same as the competition.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

Trouble is, you need to generate enough sorties to protect your own base
and _then_ generate offensive capability... which means you need
numbers, and the rising cost and falling procurement of the Raptor means
it'll be seriously stretched.

That's only if you plan on using only one type of fighter, in small
numbers, for everything.

For airfield and short-range defense, you don't need a stealth plane as
much (although it's a very good force multiplier). We can keep using
upgraded F-15s and F-16s for that, and the F-35 when it comes on line.

For *offense*, though, the new-generation European fighters are going to
have a much more difficult time. There's not going to be that many of
them, either, at the rate they're cutting procurement.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

In article ,
"Paul J. Adam" wrote:

In message , Chad Irby
writes
In article ,
"killfile" wrote:
How is one F/A-22 going to kill six Rafales?
By calling on his two wingmen, of course.

Unless the Rafales are selling for less than $30 million each, of course.

Are these in French service or exported? Very different accounting
systems used (one of the reasons people joke about "Shock Horror News
From France - GIAT Makes Profit!")

Those "very different accounting systems" are why the Rafale and
Eurofighter are *much* more expensive than the lowball numbers some
people have been expecting. $85 million each, for the British, and the
German version is about the same price.

Parts, support, and training included.

Hey, how much do you get for the cost of a F-22? Not much in terms of
maintenance, crew training, or flying hours... you get the aircraft and
the rest is all extra, same as the competition.

Wrong.

When you see those sub-$30 million numbers for the European planes, it's
for airframe alone. Which is why the British version of the Eurofighter
is pricing out at $80 to $85 million a pop for the full buy.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:49:25 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
wrote:

The Rafale has ZERO export sales, despite offsets equal to any
offered by the US. The F-35 has thousands. Do try to keep up.

I don't understand your POV. The F35 is 5 years, if all
goes well, from even entering service with the US -- the Rafale
has already been in service for two years.



Regards...

The Rafale has been a commercial failure. No export sales at
all. "In service" and an effective weapons system are not the
same thing. How many Rafales are currently contracted for?
The F-35 has 3000+ orders in hand.

Al Minyard

What about the plane you in question, the Eagle, how many exports
in the last 30, or so, years?



Regards...

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 23:21:03 GMT, Bjørnar Bolsøy wrote:

What about the plane you in question, the Eagle, how many exports
in the last 30, or so, years?

Israel - F-15A/B/D/I
Japan - F-15J/DJ
Saudi Arabia - F-15C/D/S
Republic of Korea - F-15K

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:27:47 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
wrote:


Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the
Rafael easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And
it does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded?

It's never been grouned to my knowledge, though I could
be mistaking.

And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.

That seems unlikely since their basic desing is 30 years old.

I'd take those two 30mms over the Vulcan any day. Choose
between Mica, Magic, Sidewinder, ASRAAM and AMRAAM, or
Apache, AS30L, ALARM, HARM, Maverick, or Exocet/AM39,
Penguin 3 and Harpoon. That will give any US fighter a
good run for its money.


We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?

Look at the partnership agreements signed by the UK, Australia,
Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and
Canada. There are currently contracts for 3002 aircraft with
many more in the negotiation phase.

Ok, so there haven't actually been any sales yet.

I seem to be missing your point though.



Regards...

On Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:57:25 -0000, "killfile" wrote:

"Alan Minyard" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 03 Nov 2003 23:27:47 GMT, "Bjørnar Bolsøy"
wrote:

Alan Minyard wrote in
:
On 2 Nov 2003 19:13:22 -0800, (robert arndt)
wrote:

Funny how the French had the Dewoitine D.520 and M.S.406 during
the first year of the war and how good they were. The M.S.406
while inferior to the Me-109E still racked up 175 kills from
1939-40. The D.520 OTOH was the best French fighter up until the
surrender and was certainly equal to the Spitfire and Me-109 of
the time. After WW2, the French sold many of their aircraft to
the Israelis who racked up more kills and got a lot of mileage
out of the aircraft against the Arabs: Ouragan, Mystere, Super
Mystere, Vautour, and Mirage.
Currently the French have the Mirage 2000 and Rafale, both very
capable aircraft.
You just don't like anything foreign Al.

Rob

Not when they are clearly inferior. The F-15, F-16, F-14. F-35
and F-22 are all clearly superior to anything ever produced in
France.

I'd agree on the two latter, but on the paper I'd say the Rafael
easily matches those three for it's intended roles. And it
does that years ahead of both the F22 and F35.

Is it flying, or still grounded? And you would not want to try
ACM with an F-15, F-14, or F-16. Their avionics, weapons,
and airframes are all superior.

We could just JOUST it for an interesting perspective:

http://www.eurofighter.starstreak.ne...hter/tech.html


Look at the export sales of the Rafale compared to the export
sales of the F-35.

What export sales?

Look at the partnership agreements signed by the UK, Australia,
Italy, Netherlands, Turkey, Canada, Denmark, Norway and
Canada. There are currently contracts for 3002 aircraft with
many more in the negotiation phase.

The partnership agreements concern technology transfer and workshare on the
development of the production article. No money has yet transferred hands
for any production aircraft, and NO ORDERS have been made yet. The Bush
administration is even studying canceling the thing in favour of an expanded
Block-60 F-16 purchase and UCAV's - not ouside the bounds of reality,
considering how big the budget defecit has become during the 'war on
terror'.

Get your facts straight.

Matt

My facts are straight, the orders are from the US Air Force, Navy,
and Marines. The other countries have options to buy, and
several, including the Brits and Canadians have made verbal
commitments. There are always (in the US, at any rate) fall back
scenarios in the event of major program glitches. There is
no serious talk of canceling the F-35, as no other aircraft
can perform its mission. You do realize it has a STOL
variant? And we can quite easily afford them. You do
not seem to have any idea of the size of US budgets.

Al Minyard

Not strictly true. This is the current favourite for the job, but it has
not been set in stone yet (and knowing British politics it won't be for a
while)

Quite true, I meant (and thought I said) that the UK is "planning"
on the F-35, not that any purchases had been made. Overseas
sales are nice, although there are very few countries that could
operate and maintain the F-35, the UK obviously has that
ability. In addition, there are very few countries that could be
trusted with the technology, again, no problem with the UK.

Al Minyard

On Tue, 04 Nov 2003 19:57:54 +0100, Skysurfer wrote:

Mike wrote :

The F-22 would kill all of them before they knew it was there.

bla bla bla

My, what a thoughtful response.

Remember me when the Crotale french SAM and Shahine saudi SAM detected
the F117 during the 1st gulf war ...

What are you smoking? The F-117 was not detected, and there is no
evidence that it ever has been. If Saddam's french SAMs had
"detected" the F-117 they would have fired unless you mean french
manned Crotales, in which case they never detected the F-117
either.

Al Minyard